Why Sweden Wants You to Eat More Candy Than Meat!

Welcome to the Plant-Free MD podcast with Dr. Anthony Chaffy, where we discuss diet and nutrition and how this affects health and chronic disease and show you how you can use this to optimize your health and happiness both mentally and physically. Hello everyone. Thank you for joining me for another episode of the PlantFree MD podcast. I'm your host Dr. Anthony Chaffy and today I have Oolie joining me over from Sweden and he's going to tell us about his experience with carnivore diet as a physical therapist as well as um his own personal experience. So Oie, thank you so much for uh joining. It's a pleasure to meet you. >> Really nice being here. Um watch your channel for a long time. So really inspired and glad to be here. >> Oh well thank you very much and glad to have you here. So for people who haven't come across you before, you have your own carnivore channel as well. Um, and so, but if people haven't come across you before, can you please tell us a bit about yourself and and what you do? >> Yeah. So, my name is Ola. I'm 35 years old. Um, for like 5 years ago, I started having some health issues. So, I tried carnivore. Um, and it really worked. So, I was like, okay. Like everyone else, I was like a little bit blessed. And I noticed there was a lot of YouTube channels, but nothing in Swedish. So I was like, okay, let's do a carnivore channel in Swedish. So about like almost two years ago, I started a YouTube channel in Swedish and also for like a year ago, we did a carnivore event. So that was pretty good. So it was also the first one in Sweden. It was fully booked. So it's like really growing as a movement here in Sweden. And privately, uh I've been very interested in health for a long time. I've been a personal trainer prior to being a phys physical therapist, but now I work as a physical therapist. >> Yeah. Very good. And so what what were well what brought you to the carnivore diet in the first place and what sort of changes did you see? >> So I had like gut issues like everyone else else. Uh I also had what was the most annoying for me was the tonsil stones I had. M >> so something in my uh microbiome in the mouth probably was completely off because of the sugar. Um and because I think because of these tonsil stones I had dizziness attacks. So I went to the uh I tried to get some help from doctors and they just gave me some like mouthwash. I was like okay. I I take I took the mouthwash and the tonsil stones they they disappeared. But I was like I'm not going to take this my whole life. Uh and so I could wake up in the middle of the night and the whole room was spinning. It was like awful, completely awful. So I was like, "Okay, I can't do this." And when I started carnivore, it just disappeared. I was like, "Okay, why hasn't anyone told me this could have something to do with diet?" you know, >> I'm not sure maybe you know about the mechanism if it's the like the microbiome in the mouth or if it has something to do with the gut, but >> yeah, that's that's what happened at least. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, as far as the dizziness is concerned, that's that's hard to say. It's um the tonsil stones could very well be something to do with the the micro the oral biome and some of the bacteria in your mouth increase calcification. So you might get more calcification, plaque and tartar around your teeth depending on the type of bacteria you have. Ostensibly that could translate to to stones in the tonsils. It's not something that I treat directly so I don't know all the mechanisms but it stands a reason especially if there's some sort of mouthwash that that helps out with that could could potentially be of benefit. Um but as far as the dizziness is concerned, that's a good question. Did you get your did you ever get your blood pressure or blood sugar or anything like that tested? I mean just the the sort of the normal things that sometimes they do when people are getting dizzy and lightheaded. >> No, they didn't test anything. >> Yeah. Yeah. It be it'd be interesting. I mean, when you're laying down, usually your blood pressure is a bit higher just because gravity is sort of keeping everything level. When you sit up, stand up, you can get postural drops and then your body sort of compensates. So, if you're getting these sort of low blood pressure episodes, then that can that can really be uh pronounced when you're sitting up, standing up, going from laying to standing sort of thing. You might see that more of a drop. And if you're already sort of a bit low and you drop sort of 20 points, now it's too low and you get bit dizzy. But laying down flat and then you get dizzy. That's a bit that's a bit curious and might have something to do with with blood sugar regularities, especially if you're eating, you know, a carby meal at night and then you can get reactive hypoglycemia. And if that's too pronounced, if your body is sort of reacting strongly to that, that could maybe make you feel a bit bit dizzy and and uh you generally feel like sweaty and nauseous and things like that as well. It's hard to say. Um, but you know, sometimes we can't say exactly what the mechanism was and why, you know, changing your diet fixed that, just that it did fix that. And hallelujah. I mean, at least at least it fixed it, you know. >> Exactly. And I I think my theory is that it had something to do with the tonsil stones >> because when I woke up or the the the mouth microbiome or what it's called. >> Yeah. >> I I had a really bad breath when I woke up. And this is also something that's normalized, right? Oh, it's just a morning breath. It's normal. >> But it was like for me it was like the bacteria was growing during the night, you know, when I had my mouth closed. >> So, I don't know, but it's just a theory. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. But, um I mean people people have died from from tonsil stones. I mean there was a you know for doing research to write the book that I'm doing um there's a census data census from city of Boston in 1811 looking at all the different causes of death and one of them was was tonsil stone someone actually died of tonsil stones so it's yeah exactly which is >> you know which is sort of interesting about how that happened but you know could have you know gotten very big and caused an infection and that sort of thing uh potentially or someone tried to to remove the tonsil stones and and caused an infection or something like that, which is possible. >> But um yeah, but that's good that they they you know were were able to to just go away on their own, which is great. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um okay. So then um after that um as a phys as a um physical therapist, physio therapist um have you applied this to your your your patients and clients as well? Is that something that you have the you know the the the scope of practice to do? Sometimes people are in practice and they're like they just have to sort of tow the line and just stay within what they're they're hired to do and other times they have a bit more leeway. Is that um is that something you've been able to incorporate with your clients? >> Uh no, not at all. Uh I'm at or maybe a little bit in the I'm at two different places. One is private and there I can do more what I want of course >> and the other is like uh state care and then have to do according to what they say. >> Yeah. >> I actually did during my education is an interesting story. Uh we had there was a teenage girl that she had IBS or g like stomach issues and she came to physiotherapist. I was like okay why is she even coming to us? But then there is a standard of care for physiotherapists to to like uh say that they should accept their pain like work like psychologically it's not dangerous you should accept your pain. Uh and she was like pushing my the other physotherapist she was like pushing oh maybe you feel bad like psychologically going to school and then suddenly and I was sitting there okay and then suddenly she was the the teenage girl she was bursting out like I don't I don't feel bad I just have gut issues I just have pain in my stomach and she was like 13 or something and I was like wow >> so I knew how you can't say carnivore you know out loud so I tried to do a little bit of you know uh in between I said yeah you could do like a like a diary like writing down what you react to you know just being objective you know >> and then I thought okay I could say that no problem >> and then they when they left her mother and uh the girl uh the physiotherapist she was like you can't say things like that that is not science-based yeah uh they they need to eat everything in that age you need to eat everything. >> That's not science-based. >> Yeah. And when so when I had my like meeting halftime uh they they're like grading according to some categories and one of the categories is like social behavior you know doing the actual um treatment and one of the categories is is science. Okay. So and in the science department I I wasn't uh uh yeah they said I was uh what's it called? Uh unosend was it called not? Yeah I wasn't accepted in the in the science department. Yeah they was like yeah because what you said we can't go through with that and if you miss one of those you know you're not going through the education. So I was like panicking half time. Oh And you only have two chances. If you miss twice, you can never become a physotherapist. So, I was like, "Okay, this is serious. I need to >> and after that, I just said everything that they wanted to heard, you know. >> I I didn't I was I wasn't myself. I was just, okay, I'm going to say exactly what they need to want to hear, >> and then I made it." >> But it's tragic. >> Yeah. Well, so I mean they well you need to do what you got to do to pass your pass your uh sort of qualifications but um you know saying that that experimenting is not science-based. I mean that's that's that person doesn't know what the word science means. I mean that that that is scientific experiment that that's the basis of science you know um science is is the systematic pursuit of of knowledge of the natural world and uh through observation experimentation and evidence-based reasoning right that that's a definition right and so you take observations you form hypothesis you uh test it with experiments or further observations so she has they have this she has this problem you eat food it goes was in your gut. You have problems with your gut. It is a reason it is a reasoned um uh you know evidence-based reasoning to then say well maybe it's something to do with what you're putting in your in your mouth and is going through your digestive tract and then experimenting and say okay why don't you experiment with different things and see what works. Um that is the definition of science. That is the scientific method is is ex you know extrapolating a hypothesis based on reason and observation >> and then testing it with experiment. That that is the definition of science. So um >> you know and you're fully qualified now. You don't have to deal with that psychopathic. Great. Okay. So you you tell them this like you actually don't know what the word science means and what the scientific method is and you need to get your head out of your ass. Um I would use those words. Exactly. And um you know but >> yeah sorry go on. >> Yeah I was really mad >> because for me it's a form of gaslighting. >> Oh yeah >> you know. >> Yeah >> because okay they they understand they don't know the treatment or they don't say the treatment at least. Okay. What should we do? Yeah. Now it's a form of standard of care like you should accept the pain. you should accept your problem like that is part of the education like that's a form of treatment >> when they don't have to accept it. It's so so that was I was like boiling because of that. >> Yeah. That's like that's like um you know that um Toltoy actually invented a religion or had that following and sort of had this right. And it was basically just life is misery, everything sucks and you just have to accept it and and and hope for death and eventually you'll die and it'll be over and it'll be great, you know, and that was sort of this very defeated. But he had like a hundred million people following uh during the course of his life and his son tried to like after he died his son tried to keep it going but then it sort of petered out and really needed you know Toltoy to be at the head of it. like a 100 million people I believe at one point uh followed to storyism and that was that was really what it was is just basically you have to life is misery and you just have to accept it and uh and eventually you'll die and that's when the pain goes away. I was like, "No, thank you. No, I think I think I'll I think I'll look for solutions. Thanks." And uh and not be so defeist and um uh which is it just which is funny because you know even if you were to say, "Hey, look, why don't you just try this? Write down a diary and see if you react to things." I mean, that that is not that is not an outlandish, you know, uh sum idea. And and what's the worst thing that can happen? They don't find anything and they come back like, "Yeah, I tried different things. Didn't really change it." All right. Well, at least you tried. You know, how is that not how is that not a reasonable thing to do? Oh, they have to eat everything. Everything? So, they have to eat dog you know? Like, that's like What are you talking about? What do you mean everything? Well, everything that's a food. >> Okay. Well, there's there's Snickers are something that you can eat. Is that is that food that didn't even exist uh you know, a century ago or so or whenever the hell it was invented? um certainly not in his current form. You know, there there are things that people eat that have never been in the food system up until very recently. I mean within years actually as opposed to decades or centuries. So why would you say that you need to eat everything that you know that of course is not the case and certain people are going to be more so someone with celiac should eat everything you know. No, you just have to accept your gluten allergy. You just have to accept the fact that you're going to get bloody diarrhea and and malabsorption and malnutrition and and pain. No, you just have to accept it. You have to eat everything. So, you have to eat gluten. You're not allowed to to change things around. Um, yeah, I would have had a lot of things to say to that person. But, it's very difficult in that in the situation that you're in because, >> you know, you have to sometimes you just have to just zip your zip your lip and just pass the test and and then say something. Um, yeah, that's that's difficult for Yeah, I I think I probably would have ended up saying something tried to be in a diplomatic way. Well, this is where I'm coming from and you think about think people with celiac and all that sort of stuff, but it sounds like there's there's a bit of um resistance to reason and and you just want everybody just to do exactly what they're told in the way that they're told to do it and otherwise they get they get uh punished by the by the system. Yeah. And even during the education, it's like physiootherapy you you think like okay it has nothing to do with diet but we did have some diet education during the the so and then it was like okay the normal the standard it's like uh 500 grams of meat a day. Um, and then you can have uh according to uh the Swedish uh agency, you can have 10% of your calories from sugar. >> And I was like calculating, okay, if I ate 3,000 calories, that's like 300 calories of pure sugar, from candy. Not like potatoes, from can from candy. >> Yeah. >> So I was like asking the teacher, okay, you're saying this, so I can eat more calories from sugar than from meat. because we don't have a percentage in the meat, right? It's not 15% of your body weight. It's just 500 grams. No matter if you're 100 kilos, doesn't matter. >> I was like, "This isn't Isn't this a bit strange?" >> Yeah. >> And she was like privately uh linking me uh like observational studies, like meta analysis. Yeah. >> But she got pretty she got pretty mad. Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, yeah. A lot of times, you know, people can get very, very offended if you challenge them. Not even challenge them, but just ask questions and it feels like a challenge. And that's usually coming from someone who's not very confident or sure about the information that they're providing. Um, I like it when patients ask me questions. I like it when patients have done research and looked at studies and say, "Hey, well, I found this and this and this." It's like, "Great. Let's talk about it." you know, because I want my patients to be interested in their own health and their own outcomes and, you know, to have a vested interest in in uh what we're doing. You know, that that makes for a very good patient, one that if you talk about things and and you come up with with a plan that they've really thought about and reason and look into and they say, "Yes, this is what I want to do." They're very likely to do that and they're very likely to get very good results. And at the end of the day, it is the person's own choice and and their because it's their health. And so if they're going to do something, change what they're doing somehow, take a medication, change their diet, uh change their lifestyle somehow, it's they are the ones that are going to either benefit or suffer the consequences. And so they it's important for them to be involved in that. Um, but I do notice that when people aren't as confident in in themselves or maybe know that they're maybe don't know as much as they're pretending to, they're the ones that get get really offended by by any sort of challenge by anybody that says, "Well, that doesn't sound right." Or even saying in a nice way like, "Well, eating more candy than meat, like that that seems strange, you know, like that's a fair question. It's candy, right?" Y >> you know and and the the 10% you can have up to 10%. That's understanding that like yeah this isn't good for you. It doesn't provide anything good for you. There's no nutrients here. So you can have as much as 10% but don't go more than that. Right? And that might be more than than the meat that you get. It's just like well are you also saying that meat is bad for you even though meat has essential nutrients but candy doesn't you know? and they might know that it's a stupid guideline, but maybe they're forced to like, oh, we just I just have to teach this and I can't I can't say anything else. But, um, it's usually that's usually the case when someone's not confident in what they're saying. Or maybe they even have they have good reason to to believe that that they're wrong, but they just have to push it anyway to to push that narrative or because of their job. I don't know. But that's that's usually what I see. >> Yeah. Exactly. And like just a very basic question like why is some why is okay meat is bad they say okay >> why don't we have percentage is it like a fixed because they always say like poison is in the dosage right >> but not for meat that's 500 grams always but 350 grams now a week max right they lowered the insulin >> a week >> a week >> under a kilo a day you know >> yeah know that 350 grams a week maximum in Sweden. >> Wild. >> Uh yeah, that's insane. And still 10% uh sugar for like process. >> Yeah. Daily. Yeah. Exactly. >> Daily. Daily. So >> So like a logical because I like logical questions, you know, they don't like it. Like why is why don't you have 10% or 15% of meat and even if I say they are right, why don't we have percentages for both? >> Isn't the dose the poison? You know, and they can't answer any of these questions. They're completely logical. Yeah. Yeah. Well, because they're that they're they're just made up and they're arbitrary and it's like, well, this is in the book and that's what we teach and that's what we have to do. >> And obviously it's right because it's in the book. It wouldn't they wouldn't let it be in the book if it wasn't right. Like who's they and and why do you think so much of them, you know? Um >> Exactly. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, you just have to look at the nutrition guidelines and diabetes guidelines and heart disease guidelines and heart heart health guidelines. They change every 5 years or so. And um you know they need to because we get new information. And so if that were just like no there's no questioning this this is this is you know dogma then why do we why do we adjust or have have room to adjust the guidelines every 5 years. you know, people that put this in place understood that we're our understanding of things are going to change and develop and we need to be able to change and develop them and we can't just say no, this is this is the guidelines and then doesn't matter what else comes after that. This is this is entirely true. There's nothing else that can ever change this. Um, but we have a system where you can change that. And so why is it that you're not allowed to question the guidelines when the guidelines question themselves every 5 years, right? So of course you should be able to and anybody that gets just tied up no no no the guidelines are are the end all be all they they never have a good answer for that you know why you just have to you just have to follow the guidelines uh blindly even though the guidelines can change every 5 years you know so obviously you need to question these things and and there's a the system is in place to question them except you're not allowed to question them that doesn't make any damn sense >> no exactly and this big uh the new observation study that says okay now we should eat 15 grams a day you know they just they just eat lancet uh >> they're just pushing it down down down but now it's so low that it's a little bit awkward almost because we have uh people like Dr. IDs uh >> like people but in Sweden like Dr. like pushing uh everything that the state says you know just copy pasting what I I just call them copy paste persons you know they don't have any real opinion they don't think by these copy paste you know uh but now it's a bit awkward they haven't talked about this 15 grams a day it lands it because it's so absurd you know it's almost like >> it's so absurd it so it almost gets awkward so no one has talked about yeah this is good you know uh so it's even they understand that regular people would find that like funny 15 grams. >> Why don't they say it would be better if you just had zero grams? You know, >> that would be make more sense than why should I eat 15 grams? >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, and what what is the evidence for that? Right. >> Yeah. It's observational studies like and and environment is like almost the biggest one >> in the in the in that uh study or study. >> Yeah. They said you have to you have to eat for the environment. I guess they never they never realized that the cow is part of the environment and contributes to the environment and you and you remove cows, you remove animals and actually um the land turns into deserts and we've seen that in Africa. Um they they in the 70s they felt that there were too many elephants and they were causing uh desertification in Zimbabwe uh then probably called Rodesia and they uh so they killed uh 30,000 elephants just went out and slaughtered 30,000 elephants which is massive huge hit into the population of elephants and guess what deserts got worse and and it actually spread faster and so in fact it was animals that were actually preventing that they needed more animals and um and so now people like Alan Savory are getting big herds bunched and moving moving them through and they're actually reversing deserts uh with animals and of course I'm sure the Lancet people know that that's not their agenda. They're not actually trying to make the world a better place. They're actually not trying to help the the environment. Um because there's there's there's copious amounts of evidence to show that that animals actually improve the environment, especially when you have them in that sort of like regenerative um branching sort of principles where you sort of hit hit an area hard and then move them so they don't overg graze. And um and and you keep you sort of cycle them around or have them, you know, hurting them, bunched and moving through an area. It actually makes that area better. It makes it more verdant. makes it more um more likely to to grow. I mean, they they took 20,000 or 25,000 head of sheep through the deserts in Patagonia and just kept them moving and there wasn't much to eat. It's a desert and um but in one year they increased vegetation by 50%. Just in one year. >> So imagine you do that every year, you keep doing that 50% 50% 50%, you're going to get compounding um exponential growth. And uh and Savior has shown that his great TED talk on YouTube where they showed before and after pictures where that was just complete desert. There's just like a dead tree look like a stick and then all of a sudden it's just like and it push like keep an eye on this stick and all of a sudden just trees and grasses and everything around but there's this little stick sitting there. So it's the same place >> and that was from actually having animals move through even though really wasn't anything for them to eat at the time. They made the land more viable, more fertile. Uh there's the hooves digging up the ground that made the water sort of not flow off. It sort of settled and sunk down in. So the ground water got better. The seeds didn't roll away. They actually were able to implant and uh and plants were able to grow and then you bring animals through again and again and again and again and it just gets better and better and better. So yeah, there's a lot of lot of strange things going on, but I don't I I don't I don't think that these people are so ignorant and and deluded that they think this is actually going to be beneficial for the environment. I think this is this is something else. And because there are but that's that's a very convenient way of scaring people into changing their behavior and habits. They say the whole world's going to die. The sky is falling. You know, like Chicken Little, the sky is falling. The sky is falling. And if you don't follow me and give me a bunch of money and give up a lot of your freedoms, you know, only I can prevent this guy from falling, you know, and so if you if you don't follow me, then then it's going to be big trouble and everybody's going to die. And I mean, what can be what can be more important than that? There's always doomsday prophets. They've always been wrong. And so, you know, it's um >> you know, it's uh and it's just I mean when you point these things out to people, even when they they really believe in that and you point all that stuff out, they're like, "This is really shaking my worldview." When people look at the facts and are able to balance them, they they generally come out on on the side of, yeah, actually animals are necessary for the environment. And um so I I couldn't imagine that these learned people are actually so deluded or uneducated or ignorant that they don't actually know what's going on. I think they know exactly what they're doing. >> Yeah, probably. >> And I've seen that TED talk um I don't remember his name, but the guy with elephants in Africa where they kill the elephants and he was like >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And he was like really sad. >> Yeah. And I was like, okay, it's good that he comes forward now and confess his uh and want to make it better now. That's really good. But I was like thinking, okay, how did he even come to that conclusion? I mean, this is a really smart guy. He's an educated guy. M >> and of course it is because if you listen blindly it doesn't matter how smart or educated you are you can make like huge mistakes >> because just by you know you don't need an education to understand that killing elephants is not good it's not a good thing you know >> so that's that's my take on that >> well that's just the the traditional way that this was taught that um that um environmentalism was was taught like as as a practice and a study that you know the and and he even said that Sabre even says that that it's just like well you know all the all the hurting um created all the great deserts in in the world. That's what he was taught and he still thinks that even though he's proven the opposite even though he's proven that actually more animals makes less deserts. What has actually caused the deserts was um what I believe is agriculture. Uh because you you then that does cause I mean we we saw this in the in America in the great plains um in the in the early 1900s we had the dust bowl era where we had like all this big you know commercial farming we're tilling up all this soil and we're just and and the wind would blow off the top soil the rain would wash it away they have to till it up again and till it up again till it up again and we're just wasting we had like 15 20 ft of top soil at one point uh when we first got here and the grass was 9 ft tall. I mean, all all across America, um they said that you could you could tie the grass in a knot over your horse's head and and ride under it, you know, and um and so obviously this is um you know, it's a very very fertile place. And then they blew through it all just through through farming. And they figured out it was farming. Uh but they they ran through all that 15 20 ft of of top soil very quickly and then all of a sudden they were down to just dead dirt. It wasn't soil and they couldn't grow anything. And so you had these these um you know dust storms and these locust swarms and things like that. And I mean this is sounds like a Bible story out of Exodus or something like that. The plagues brought down on Pharaoh and it was exactly the same. you know, in Egypt, they're they're, you know, doing wide wides uh spread agriculture and farming and that was destroying the land and and and destroying the top soil, destroying the land, causing dust storms and things like that. Back when the pyramids were made and the Sphinx was made, um the the soil was actually uh very different and they tested it and they found that it was actually not a desert at the time. They were actually jungles. So those were jungle people and those were jungle pyramids and they destroyed the land. They turned it into a desert and um you know I think because of agriculture and destroying the top soil. And the thing was with you got away with that longer in Egypt because the Nile River would flood every year. And I was taught this in grade school that the reason they were so um you know so a able to you know be the bread basket of of Europe was that or the ancient world was that they the the the Nile River flooded every year and redeposited silt and nutrients you know from Ethiopia and things like that u into that into that land. Okay. And so they were able to keep growing crops every year. So what does that mean? That means that you're losing those those nutrients. losing those minerals and you won't be able to grow >> if you if you don't replace them that you need to replace them. Okay, so what about areas that didn't have rivers that flooded in a river valley that flooded every year, right? You're only going to get, you know, a certain amount of growing seasons before that's done, before you've run out of top soil, before you've destroyed the land. You know, the the fertile crescent um is in the Middle East. And so that's where agriculture, one of the first places agriculture started. And you know that whole area if you look at like the the epic of Gilgamesh, it's the first well the oldest written story that we have. Um it talks about basically with modern day Iraq and Iran where they're they are um they were just just grasslands and and deer and analopee and and you know virgin cedar forests and all that sort of stuff. You know, modern day Iraq and Iran. I mean that's that's not that's not what it looks like today. And I would you know I would say that that's actually from from that fact and and in fact during Genghask well just after Genghaskhan during the Mongol um war when they they controlled the Middle East and into Europe and Asia um it actually says that that was the time that just basically ran out from from over farming and things like that. It just just went kaput and it just wasn't fertile anymore and they just couldn't couldn't keep up. And um I think that's what's going on in the rest of the of of the world as well. That's what happened in the middle of America. It was turning the middle of America into another Sahara desert. And that was said at the time because we understood that this area desert was actually man-made. And um and savory was taught and and still thinks that that was because of hurting. No, I don't think so at all. I think that was from from crops and agriculture. And you can actually see from space when you're using infrared satellite technology. you actually look through the dunes and things like that, there's like cities spanning all over what is now the Sahara Desert and just covered by sand dunes, right? And so, you know, that you know, but he was taught that way. So, he said, "Hey, look, we have all these elephants. Elephants are seemingly pretty destructive because they they'll knock over a whole tree to get at the leaves that they can't reach, right? So, they're ripping these things up. Obviously, animals eat plants and they're eating them to the point that now there's no plants and there's the deserts, right? So, obviously that's what's going on, but then that's not what happened in reality. And um but and so he figured that out. Well, actually, you bring more animals in in their living their natural way and hurting, but bunched and moving, not overg grazing. Sure, overg graze and you'll you'll destroy the land. No problem. No argument there. But if you do it in that bunched and moving sort of way in that natural mimicking a natural migration pattern, it's very beneficial. And I mean that the the grasslands all across the world evolved with ruminant grazing animals and you can't have one without the other. In Australia, we don't have massive grasslands here. That's because there weren't large ruminate animals. I mean, there's some grasses and there's plants and there's animals that eat them, but they didn't have 100 million buffalo hering through and rhinos and hippos and cape buffalo and analopee and elephants and things like that. So, they didn't have the same terraformation that in Australia they did elsewhere, right? So, it's a very different different landscape and environment here. So he looked at that and and then directly changed that and said used hurting to reverse deserts and then still because that was taught to him because that was burned into his oh this is just what it is that oh yeah well hurting uh caused the deserts but you know that that animals can you know benefit. So what you know you he went against his previous education. he understood that part of that was wrong, but because that hasn't been challenged yet in his head, well then there's no reason to take that out. And so he even said in that TED talk that that is like, well, yes, well, we know that the, you know, hurting animals that that caused the deserts. I mean, that's assuming a fact that's not an evidence. I mean, he knows for a fact that a big part of his education was wrong, and he's gone against that. And so, but he's still hanging on to part of his education. And that's and that's a very common thing to do. I see that a lot. And you know, doctors, you'll see certain things like something completely upended be like, "Yeah, well, this is not true. This is completely different." But yeah, all these other things are definitely true. And you speak very confidently about them because you don't have any reason to question them. So, I I see that as well. But, um, it's it's important to question basically everything. And just and I'll preface that with my patients. So be like, "Well, look, you know, this is this is how we think this works. We've been wrong before, but at the moment, this is I have no reason to question that. So this is this is how we're going." And because it's important, I've seen too many things turned on their head to to be able to just trust blindly that's what it is. It's just like that's what it looks like. And I have no reason to question that yet. That's what I say. >> Yeah. Exactly. It's like a psychological thing going on. like I think it's uh doing with identity uh I am a doctor and if I say my education is completely wrong okay then who am I you know it it gets very hard like on a psychological level but like they say you know the the crazier the statement the harder the evidence needs to be so I always like question okay what's the basis of this what's what's the evidence you Okay, if I say what's the evidence of killing elephants, you need extreme evidence. Okay, extreme to to say that you should do that. But they just show a graph, you know, okay, look here like on diet 10% observational data. It's not like it's uh you start from nothing. No, you need extreme evidence to tell me that meat is bad. Extreme, you know, >> uh it's not like cigarettes. Okay, it's for me it's logical. Okay, you shouldn't smoke. You don't need as strong evidence even if that's also based on observational data uh primarily and it's very strong correlation between uh smoking and some can uh different kind of cancers etc. But you don't need as strong of a graph on that one. Uh but they they never consider these things because it seems like they don't have an inner monologue for me. They don't I ask myself questions and try to defeat my own arguments. I've always done that since I was like I don't know like 20 years. So it seems like these people they they're not really doing that. And like you said it's like cognitive dissonance. he can act one one way and then but still no but my education was right you know my identity it's so you need to choose your path you know >> but that's why it's so hard I think for most people they get stuck uh because they know I I I say it like it's Pandora's box because if you open okay meat is good okay what comes next what comes next and they they and I think they know that you know deep down inside so they don't want they want to open the Pandora's box because it's psychologically it's very hard to do that and I thought it was hard as well. You know, it's it's insane. >> Yeah. And that and that's the thing too is that that's part of the scientific method as well is that you have a hypothesis and then you try to design an experiment to disprove your own hypothesis. Because if you try as hard as you can to disprove it and you and you can't, well, that's pretty strong evidence that it's that it's true, right? But if you just do a weak laxidasical one, you know, gear it up to make it look good. Well, then some a you may be fooling yourself and you may be bringing about false false information to people. Uh but secondly, uh someone else might just come in and say, "Well, you you you didn't do that right. You know, you did it in this way. It's really soft." Right? And um and so it's it opens it up for critique. But that's what that's what real science is. You're trying to you're actually trying to figure out what is going on. That's the purpose of the scientific method. It's not to push an agenda, you know, that's propaganda and or marketing. And that's what, you know, the cigarette companies did for decades. They they put out propaganda and marketing dressed as scientific literature and studies saying, "Oh, well, we don't we didn't find any relationship between addiction, smoking and addiction or emphyma or cancer." And so, well, we just I mean, I know these studies say that, but you know, our studies don't. And we just I mean, I guess we just need more studies because we just we just don't know yet. It's like, yeah, yeah, you do. And so, the default there is that you get to keep selling your product. And at the end of the day, it took decades to just um not even ban smoking, but just put a warning label on it. Like, that's all that happened. It was just it was just a warning label. Surgeon General's warning. Smoking may cause cancer. May. Right. That's it. That's all it was. And they fought for decades to not get that warning on them. And there there was a for a while they actually thought or people were led to believe that smoking was actually beneficial in certain ways. You know, there's there's ads you can look them up. You know, nine out of 10 doctors smoke camel or choose Camel or whatever. and in the I was looking this up, you know, for the, you know, the different different things that people fueled themselves with in different points and and and eras um in history for athletes and specifically the tour to France. And I found articles talking about how like in the 1940s and 50s um they were very meat-based, but they also just drank a ton of alcohol just booze it because it was like a single gear bike on a dirt road and they're just going through the mountain. So grueling grueling experience and they would just basically go as far as they could and just whatever lodge or or hotel was was closest that's where they would stay and then they just booze it up and party and and um and eat a bunch of meat and smoke cigarettes and things like that and they get out and do it again. But interestingly, they said that every morning when they got ready for to ride, they would smoke four or five cigarettes because they thought that this helped open up their lungs and give them better cardiovascular performance on the day because that's just what was was pushed at the time. And we, you know, now we look at that, well, yeah, obviously smoking's bad for you. But that wasn't always known. That wasn't always understood. And people actually thought that that was good for your lungs. Oh, it helps open your lungs. It helps your cardiovascular health. And um you know so we you know we we have definitely been you know fooled in a lot of ways and and specifically with that predatory um those that predatory marketing dressed up as scientific literature and um yeah and and I think we need to definitely uh understand that there's so much tied up in this that you know the reason people are saying don't eat meat is is not because it's actually bad for you. Because a lot of these people are actually coming from the food and uh generally from the food industry, from the the sugar industry and things like that because when you get rid of meat, you you eat more of their products, their plant-based products. And um and so they they profit from that. And it's not about know people that go plant-based don't just generally like farm their own quinoa and have a whole garden themselves. They typically are buying package ready food. And because most people don't know how to cook anymore and prepare their own meals. And so the majority of people will get ready-made packaged meals that are largely plant-based and uh and and junk food and snacks and Doritos and Oreos because well they're plants and only meat is bad. Plants are all good. Um and that's and that's what they do and that's that's how they're profiting from that. So there's a huge industry behind it. There's a multi-t trillion dollar industry behind it. And then you get sick from that. you get diabetes, you get um heart disease, you get all these other sorts of things. And then you have this multi-t trillion dollar sick care system and pharmaceutical system that's there to to treat the consequences of a of a terrible junk food plant-based diet. And it's not just junk food. It's not just seed oils. It's not even just sugar. I mean, I have patients that were, you know, whole food plant-based um and they were horribly sick. I mean, there's malnutrition that goes in there, too. But even some people, even when they're eating just whole foods, including meat, and so they're not necessarily nutrientd deprived, they they can have very serious health issues, especially autoimmune issues. And and it's not until they remove all the plants completely, that that fixes and that sorts itself out. And I mean, this has been argued in the scientific literature since the '90s with Dr. freed in 1991 arguing that autoimmune conditions are not actually your body attacking itself. It's actually your body's response to the known consequences of the plant toxins called lectins. They get in your body, they attack your body, and that stimulates an uh immune uh response in some unlucky individuals um that we would call autoimmunity, but that this is largely called caused by plant toxins called lectins. And so you remove all those and and lo and behold, these things go away. And that's what we see in clinical practice. Um we actually have randomized controlled trials and uh controlled trials and and un uncontrolled experimental data sets comparing it to um uh historical uh norms showing that you you change the diet, you remove these sorts of things and and things improve. So you know it's um there there is evidence there and and it's not just junk food and it's not just this. I mean there there all those things can be bad but there are a lot of things that can be bad. It's not just one thing. We have to recognize that it's a lot of things but just going meat only typically gets rid of most if not all of those and people's health improves. And um so yeah I mean there but we we do have studies showing these things but they're not taught in medical school. They're not taught in residency programs. I mean there there's there randomized control trials showing that you change someone's diet um and it will be as good or better than treating someone with with prennazone or prenniscolone for acute flare up of Crohn's and it can put people into remission at the same rate but also you don't get all the consequences and negative health uh detriments of putting someone on long-term steroids which are huge and so that would in a lot of ways be better. you get the same remission rate and you get um and you don't get all the the negative consequences from using steroids. Those studies go back to 1984, you know, and there's another one 1985 and 1987. Like there's multiple studies showing this. And so why don't we know about that? Why isn't why aren't those taught in g when you're when you're doing your residency in gastronenterology and you're treating Crohn's? Why wasn't that taught to me in medical school? Oh yeah, look, ulcerative colitis and this and smoking helps one and makes the other one worse and all these sorts. Why why wasn't it mentioned that that you could use food? Because we've had we've had randomized control trials going back to the 80s showing that this works and helps. Why wasn't why wasn't that taught to us? And they're still used like like elemental diets and shakes and things like that where your body just absorbs the macros and micros and nothing else. and um and that this helps and and so some people they do use that. So it's sort of it's it that information is out there but most people don't know about it and and I've I've spoken to gastronurologists who had no clue that that this was a thing and that the that evidence was out there and it's just um because we're just there's no product behind it. you know, there's nothing that you can push out there and say um and and then make billions of dollars on just by not eating certain things. And so we people have to understand for their own sake what the incentives are and and who is actually doing the research. You know, obviously whenever you read a study, you know who's funding it, but you have to always think about what the incentives are and um and the incentive structures for the for the pharmaceutical companies are to continue and perpetuate a disease state and treat only the symptoms and never address root cause because if they address a root cause, then that's it. The gravy train is over. And they've said this, Goldman Sachs has said this privately that then got leaked publicly that that it's a bad business decision to cure a disease. You want to treat symptoms and you just keep treating symptoms for the rest of their life. And so if you get sick, you know, 13, 24, and you need these medications that cost x amount of dollars a month, you get to charge that person for the rest of their life. Or maybe you charge them 10 times as much, but you cure them. You know, that's it. it's over. You make less money charging them more for the cure than if you just charge them less and perpetuated the disease state. And for autoimmune issues especially, that's that's a cash cow because those those those drugs can cost thousands of dollars, sometimes, you know, tens of thousands of dollars or over $10,000 per month. And they also suppress your immune system. They cause all sorts of of downstream negative effects, cancers that's then cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, millions of dollars to treat, right? So, you just turn that person into a long-term commodity. And that is exactly how these people look at it where they that here's this condition and this is the predictable course that that's going to go and this is the predictable amount of money that we're going to make or that the industry is going to make. There was a there's something that got that came out. I just saw this recently actually uh where was it Fizer or or someone anyway one of the drug companies I don't know who it was but it was at some sort of high up meeting maybe shareholders maybe executives who knows >> and they talked about the market projection for obesity and things like that and they're using the OMICS or WGOI and all these sort of things. So like, okay, here's where we think obesity is going to go and this is how it's tracking and this is what our sales are going to look like. And they actually broke out into applause like, yes, this is great. It's great that more people are getting obese. It's great that more people are going to be sick and have to to suffer the consequences of these drugs that that have made people go blind, have made them die, have given them permanent issues that they may never recover from. And and they're they're applauding this. Like they're applauding for human suffering and disease. That's that's sick in my mind, but just understand there's incentives, right? That's who they are. They're not going to look for a cure. They're not going to look for a cure. They're explicitly not looking for a cure. So fine, they'll do that. We can use the symptomatic, you know, band-aids if we need them. And some things are very useful, don't get me wrong. But if if you don't have to, then why would you? And so let's look for root cause issues ourselves. And and if we need a touchup with medications, then great. Like if you've lost your thyroid and you need thyroid medication, it is great that we have the ability to replace someone's thyroid hormone because they'll die otherwise. And so that's really good. Or someone who has pernicious anemia can't absorb B12. great that we can give them an injection and keep them alive and thriving, but if you don't need to, you don't want to. And so, we need to understand that they're not looking for that. And I grew up all the time going like, "Oh, there's all these scientists, these drug companies trying to find cures." No, they're not. No, they're they're trying to find treatments. They're not trying to find cures. In the 1800s, they were trying to find cures. Absolutely. And when this became commercialized in a multi-trillion dollar industry, that died. and uh actually died long before that which is what turned them into a multi- trillion dollar industry and they're certainly not going to not going to try for that now. No, not a chance in hell. So we just have to understand that recognize that and do it ourselves and that's what we're doing. >> Yeah. Exactly. And my logical question is then for these companies, okay, you say OMIC treat obesity, right? >> Mhm. But at the same time the obesity rate is going up and more and more people are using ompic. So they they always have like two thoughts like going on at the same time. I can't I can't have that because it's cognitive dissonance. >> But it seems like some people don't care as long as they make money or whatever they want to do, you know. But that's why we always need to zoom out. I say I zoom out. I I want I you need to have a bigger picture because in many cases there is like a paradigm within a paradigm. Okay. >> So maybe I start like whatever having a debate with someone about what diet we should eat and we only talk uh science because that's what we're told you know >> like observational science even randomized control trial. But I say okay then we're in this paradigm. Why shouldn't we have biological evidence and anthropological evidence within because it's not even it's not that uh you know what do we base our evidence on you know I start with the biggest question they don't want to start there they want to go straight to what they consider the only evidence you know their observational data >> so you you always need to zoom out and see because many times there is a paradigm within a paradigm. >> Yeah. And and the thing is too is you you raised a good point there which is you're getting on more and more medication which means the problem is getting worse which means people are getting less healthy. So by definition if you have to put somebody on more medications they are getting less healthy. And doctors may not actually recognize that because people are getting sick or we're giving them medication and that helps them and it can. But if they're going on more medications then by definition means they are less healthy and so we are not actually we are helping them mitigate those problems but they are getting healthy unhealthy. We are not making them healthier by putting them on these drugs. they are continuing to get less healthy and we're trying to use drugs to to moderate the that decline. By definition, if you are not needing as many medications and you're coming off medications, then you are getting healthier because you don't need as much medications for these symptoms and other sorts of negative processes. But we as doctors think like, oh yeah, we'll just put this medication, we'll do this, we'll do this treatment, we'll just kind of keep you fixed up. But they they are getting worse and they're going to continue to get worse. And if you don't sort of figure out what the root cause is, then that's just going to continue. I mean, I had a patient come in with 18 medications that she was on the other day. And it could be up I mean, I've seen, you know, I've spoken to doctors, they have patients with 30 medications. It's insane. And half of those medications are there to treat the symptoms and side effects of the other medications. And that's really bad. And it's called a prescription cascade. And that's a that's a bad road to go down as a doctor or a patient. And so in my practice, changing their diet and lifestyle, big part of my practice is deprescribing, getting people off medications. And and it's um and that is how you know that they're getting healthier. And the things that you're doing for them are getting them healthier because they don't need those medications anymore. They don't need the blood pressure medications. They don't need the diabetes medications. They don't need all the the painkiller medications or all the medications for all the side effects of all the other medications. And so these things can just just cascade off of you. And uh I see it all the time. Um you know, to that end, you know, you with your channel and the people that you've worked with, what are some of the things that that you've seen? Uh I know when we're off camera, you mentioned like things like arthritis and other sorts of things. being a physical therapist, you know, that that obviously would be in your in your, you know, Bailey wick, but what are some of the things that you see? >> Yeah, arthritis is a big one. Um, but also >> I had I get patients, you know, because they can't fix their problem like you said because they they're not using the correct meth method only only work with the symptoms like diabetes for example. So I get diabetes patients sent to me as a physiotherapist. Um and of course yeah it's very good working out etc. But it's not really you know attacking the main the main problem. Um and I can't say it the main problem. I can say it indirectly you know but and and they they can even send people that has gone so far to to uh operate cut off their toes. That's one thing. If diabetes go far enough, they have to cut off their toes. And then they get sent to me physotherapist. Okay, I have pain in my toes. I was like, >> yeah, of course, you know, okay, we can do something maybe, but the problem is already there because of the high blood sugar, you know. >> Yeah. >> So, I like to see health I always see in health like holistically like we have mechanical health which is physiootherapy. We have biochemical health which should be like the doctor's jobs right and we have psychological health which should be the psychiatrists but and they're all like uh intervening with each other but many of the times this is not a mechanical problem you know it's the same with arthritis it's a biochemical problem you know >> why do cortisone injections work so good if this is something we different kind of pain. We have we have inflam inflammatory pain okay caused by inflam inflammation. We have mechanical pain. So and most of the times it's inflammatory pain. That's why an injection cortisone injection work. It doesn't uh make the the joint get uh bigger, right? No, it doesn't grow back. Uh so it's not that the bones are meeting each other. If it's far enough, then yes, it is mechanical pain. and the shot won't work. >> But for most people, the shot just removes the pain. It's like, oh, but if the the bones are it's not the bones, it's inflammation in the joint. >> Yeah. And um I see that a lot as well, even for just osteoarthritis where it's just it's just, you know, breakdown of the cartilage. People don't realize too that carbohydrates cause glycation in the in the cartilage as well and damages that. And so when we're taking out cartilage after, you know, knee arthoroscopy or we're taking out damaged discs in the spine, they're full of these advanced glycation end products, the glycation damage we get from from sugar. Um, full of them. And so just just protecting yourself in the future, you keep you keep your carbs down, you keep that glycation load down, and you'll protect your cartilage as well. I mean, you can still damage them. might damage my kneecap, the patellar articular cartilage from kickboxing, doing knee strikes. And that's apparently a very common thing when people do kickboxing that I I wish someone told me at the time, but you know, now I've got that problem. I have no other arthritis in my body. I have no other um cartilagynous issues regardless of of the highintensity sort of impact sports that I've played my whole life, but I've never been a big carb addict. And in fact, I always gravitated away from them because I felt better without them. I just sort of ate them sometimes because that was it was there and you're supposed to. Uh but when I was buying my own food, I I hardly ever bought rice or pot. I'm never bought rice. Never once bought rice. Literally never once bought um rice to bring home. Like if it was a maybe at a restaurant or something like that, I'd have the rice, but I never I've never made I've never made rice on my own as an adult. U pasta couple times, bread, that'd be it. and um but not all that much and and then large tracks of my life that I was just carnivore and and zero carb. So I've never had problems with with articular cartilage except for the the impact that I I've had from the kneecaps. Um, but the other thing is too is that that you're exactly right that inflammation while you're not even changing your diet's not not necessarily going to like you regrow your carage and I I have no reason to suspect that it will, but a lot of people improve their symptoms and >> and they massively improve how they feel and and the pain that they experience. And so even though their their knees like bone on bone or their ankles or shoulder bone on bone, all of a sudden they feel like, hey, actually I'm I'm I'm able to live with this. The indication for surgery for a joint replacement is pain and you have a severe arthritis and it's causing severe pain and disability because you just can't move your arm. I go, "Oh, it just hurts too much." Then that's when it would qualify for surgery. Um if there's no pain, you don't need surgery. Even if there's no cartilage there, you don't just do it just because you can do it. um you do it because there's a there's an actual clinical need and I see so many people and this is how Dr. Baker got into this because his patients change their diet and all of a sudden they didn't need joint replacements anymore and um you know my friend Dr. uh Gary Fecky down in Tasmania. Same thing, you know, he he says like, "Okay, yeah, look, you qualify for this joint replacement. We'll book you in. You're going to be in, you know, 3 months or whatever, but until then, you will go on this diet and you have to be on this diet um while you're getting ready." And and the ones that do it and stick with it often times will improve to the point that they call them and say, "Hey, look, I I don't think I need surgery anymore. Like, I'm I'm feeling fine. Like, my knee feels great. I'm just going to keep doing this." He's like, "Okay, great. No problem." He goes, "Let me know if there's if you need help in the future." And that's just osteoarth arthritis. I mean the the reactive arthritis where they have like rheumatoid arthritis or other inflammatory causes of arthritis. Those are massively improved as well and actually can stop the destruction from that inflammatory process. So people like Michaela Peterson had two major joint replacements as a teenager which very aggressive disease gone now. She's had no issues since since going very strict carnivore. And that's amazing. That's amazing that you can give people back their life like that and um and and that there is something that they can do. They don't just have to be on horrific medications that are going to give them cancer down the road or likely to give them cancer down the road and going to cause all sorts of other issues. They're sick all the time. They can't it's hard for them to recover from infections and it doesn't even work all the way because she was still getting flare-ups. She was still having problems. She was still had to get her her joints replaced. I believe an ankle and a hip, you know, at 16, 17 years old. So, with the medications, with all that modern medicine could do that that she was still getting so many flare-ups and so much damage that and so much pain that she had to get these joint replacements. So, obviously, that's that's something significant when you can just change your diet and it just shuts all that down. So, yeah, I think it's I think it's pretty incredible. Yeah, definitely. And that's where we need to be honest. Is this really a mechanical problem? You know, >> and that's also like the clients or patients that I have that are because some are just pure mechanical problems. Of course, like you can tore your shoulder and then we're going to do this type of exercises and think in this way. For me, those are of course the most fun because I feel I can help the person 100%. >> Mhm. And it's it's the same if I I do some coaching in carnivore or or stuff like that. It's the same. Maybe this is uh like more like a psychological problems. Maybe they actually had some issues in their childhood and I can't help with that. Okay. >> Maybe okay maybe there are some symptoms will get better with carnivore but they need to see someone to talk you know so we need to analyze okay what is the problem and and most of the times it's it's a little bit of everything you know because many people have the their quality of their tissue is really poor especially older people and that's also diet related they're >> it's like >> it's like uh they're almost uh I don't want to be rude But they're almost, you know, rotting, >> you know, >> or degrading anyway. Yeah. >> Yeah. Some older people, they don't, you know, maybe they don't smell that well. And people say, "Okay, it's because they don't shower." But I don't think it's only because they don't shower. It's because the actual tissue is rotting because of the sugar in the blood. And that doesn't smell good. >> Yeah. And um and certainly you can get a lot of atrophy and muscle wasting um which is a which is a known risk factor for all sorts of health issues and and early death is sarcopenia. So muscle wasting and >> so that's and that's then that's nutritional largely. I mean she can have chronic illnesses and other sorts of reasons but if you're getting proper nutrition your body's able to maintain your lean body mass no sarcopenia. And so I've seen I have patients that have that uh come to see me because they have sarcopenia and they're like look I like this isn't this isn't good. Uh what can we do about this and um and we sort of sort out their diet and um you know and and that can and that can sort them out. I mean, I've got I've got elderly patients in their 70s and 80s who are putting on muscle because they they are eating properly now and and even exercise. Before they they couldn't put on muscle. They were just sort of slowing down their degradation of their of their lean body mass. But now they're actually putting on muscle and they're gaining lean body mass. And it can be difficult especially for for certain people and you know when you get very unwell and have mobility issues for example, it can be very difficult. But um it can happen. I mean, it's not like it's not like it's not possible. If you're able to stimulate the muscles in the body and you're able to eat enough, then you'll be able to put on on lean body mass, which is fantastic. And so, yeah, I think that I think that most of the issues that we're dealing with now are nutritional at all stages of life. And if you can if you can fix the nutrition, then you should be able to fix those issues and certainly the atrophy over time. And so if you're if you're atrophying and your body's not able to to put on lean body mass, you know, you need to examine exactly what you're eating or not eating and try to optimize that. And maybe you're you're losing weight and losing lean body mass doing carnivore. Are you eating enough? Are you getting enough of these nutrients and vitamins and minerals and and you know, organs or whatever. Um it's very satiating to eat a carnivore diet. So it's very common to undereat. So, you know, you need to really go after it and um eat as much as as you can, especially if you're losing more weight than you want. Things like that. I mean, it can even it can even be from eating what I would consider a proper a proper human diet. Um if you're not eating enough, for example, or you're not getting enough fat or whatever. Um so, yeah, and I I think that's the majority of issues that we're facing now in health. >> Yeah, definitely. And I've noticed a lot of people in like the holistic health space uh they see diet of course it's important but it's for them it's as important as every other factor which I don't think is true >> you know you know diet is more important than going for a walk. >> It's more important than >> doing some meditation. So a lot of people they do like everything else correct but they up the diet. Okay. a lot of in the like a yoga movement and stuff, they're maybe vegans. So, they do like everything h you shouldn't stress. They understand all of these things, but they still have a lot of problems, you know, >> because they do one thing wrong because that's like such a big factor. They don't understand how big the factor is. >> Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I mean there are people that that are so unwell or overweight that they can't walk. I mean there's I mean there's people uh like you know my friend Sean who's has a YouTube channel he he lost I think 250 lbs in the first year and it was a point that he basically lived on his couch for 3 years and it was very difficult him for him to just walk down the hall to the bathroom and he just basically lived on the couch and he just and by just walking down the hall um he would uh it would cause so much nerve compression that he was getting numbness in his legs just by going that distance. So, he was not going to lose that weight by doing exercise. Wasn't going to happen. And so, you know, I know I saw a line by Peter Aia who, you know, I've got a lot of time for Peter. I think he's a smart guy. But, you know, one thing that he said was that like, you know, that exercise was basically really, really important. I agree. But he was saying basically the most important instead of quibbling over, you know, the the subtle differences between this version of a diet and another. If you can't do one push-up that or pull-up, that's your main problem. Well, maybe. But the fact of the matter is that if you don't get the diet right, you might never be able to do a pull-up. It's just not going to happen. I mean, if you're if you're 400 lb overweight, h how are you supposed to do a pull-up? You'd have to just be the strongest man in the world to, you know, pull up you 500 lb pull-ups, 600 lb pull-ups. It's not going to happen, right? And so you have to do the get the diet right first for a lot of these people so that you can get healthy enough in order to tr to start building up your pull-ups or your push-ups. And you know now Sean is at the gym and he's going for runs and he's doing all these. He could not do that before. And when he was getting healthy and he was losing weight, he was able to say, "Okay, I'm going to walk down the hall and then walk back." And that was all he could do for a while. And then he would do it like three times and then it was four and then it was five and then all of a sudden he could go for a short walk down the street and then back and then he could go around the block and then he you know it just little little things but it wasn't until he but it was three years on the couch he couldn't he couldn't do that. And so that wasn't ever going to happen you know from from just an exercise point of view. He had to get the diet right. And now that he does, he's lost all this weight. Now he can do the exercise and that's going to compound his his uh improvements and speed it up definitely. But you got to get the diet right first. Um in a lot of these cases, you know, sometimes you can you can get really healthy and fit eating crap, but you can't outrun a bad diet. Diabetes is going to catch up. The the inflammation is going to catch up. The joint issues are going to catch up. The chronic issues are going to catch up. You might get autoimmune issues. might have all these other sort of gut problems where you're trying to run a marathon and you're just like, "Oh god, I mean, people in in recent years have because of all the drinks and the sugar and the gels and things like that, they're actually not able to control their bowels as they're running. So, they're just actually just defecating all over themselves um as they're running and they just keep running." I mean I mean I don't I don't know even if I was on world record pace, you know, if something like that's happening like, "Yep, we're done now. you were out, you know, it's just like no. And you know, why would you think that you're actually being healthy if that's if that's something you can't even control your own bowels? You know, obviously something that you're eating is not is not doing well for you. And so, you know, that that I think is lost on people that you may be fit, but you're not healthy. And um and that that's going to catch up to you. And then there's some people that that have no ability to get fit until they get healthy with their diet. And but it's going to help both of them anyway. >> Yeah. And it's the common saying of, you know, you should move move more and eat less, you know. >> Yeah. >> How should a guy do that in that situation? I mean, he's he's that overweight. So, of course, and his tissue is probably poor quality because of the bad diet. Everything is uh inflam inflammation everywhere >> and the joints are bad and the the ligaments are bad. The bad skeleton is is bad. Everything is just poor quality and a lot of weight compressing. So it it is a mechanical problem but it's because of the diet. Okay? So you can't like how should a a dude like that you know start moving more you know. No he needs to fix. So if he eats the wrong thing, maybe he can uh lose weight with like another diet, maybe. But maybe the tissue isn't uh improving, so it's still compressing the nerve. It needs to heal. It needs nutrients to heal the body. >> Yeah, definitely. Um I was going to ask you as well, so you have your your YouTube channel as well, obviously bringing this to the the Swedish market, uh which is great. Um, what are what are the main things that you talk about on your YouTube channel and try to cover? >> Uh, I do interviews like you. >> Uh, so I there's a lot of people. We have like I think it's like 8,000 people in a Facebook group, Carnival Nordic. >> It's pretty big. So people from there like contact me and say, "Yeah, fix this problem. Let's do an interview." >> So we do it in Sweden and and Swedish. And uh, yeah, people really appreciate it. >> Yeah. Very good. So, are you are you mostly interviewing um people in Sweden and their success stories or you are you bringing outside people in as well? >> Yeah, almost only Swedish people and their >> their stories. So, yeah, want to >> get the word out and I think the the carnivore market, so to speak, it's pretty like full in English. So, I was like, >> I don't want to do another there's no >> no market for that right now. At least for me, because >> the the thing that makes me unique is that I'm doing it in my own language. And I think more people should do that also to spread it like locally. >> Yeah. Oh, I totally agree. I mean, this is something that, you know, we got to get this out to more people, not just people, you know, native English speakers. Um, you know, YouTube is is nice. They're starting to to translate things to other languages. Lord knows how accurate that's going to be, though. But it's um it's it's interesting. But they don't do it for all all videos. they will automatically do it or they won't do it at all. And so some of my videos um you can do that autodubbing and you can sort of click on it and like oh okay here you go. But you know I'm thinking about actually making foreign language channels and like translating some of the the core sort of videos myself and getting those into other languages too um so that you can get this out to other people because it is so important. It's it's really important to get this out and so having more people like yourself um you know doing these in you know in your home home uh countries and languages is really important. Um do you do you then do like solo videos and and people want to see your videos too? Obviously they don't need to speak Swedish because you know there are foreign language dubbing and um uh and also subtitles as well. So people can do that too. So, you know, encourage people to go and check out your videos, but um do you then try to talk about sort of the the science and evidence um going into this or is it mostly interviews that you're doing for like success stories? >> Uh yeah, some of the evidence I did like uh I got very inspired about your uh how to do carnivore um your original video uh why we are carnivor. >> Why we're carnivores. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. So I did like a thing but in Swedish. So I think it's like one hour and 20 minutes and I just went through everything and I just with my take >> and I went into science a little bit and yeah like like I said before like we have a paradigm within a paradigm. >> So I tried to zoom out a bit in that >> uh video. So yeah, a lot of people really like it and also a lot of Norwegian, it's almost the same language like Swedish and Danish people also understand. So yeah, a lot of Nordic people. >> Yeah. Very good. And then so so largely Swedish people for the success story side of side of things. What are some of the the more uh sort of interesting and inspirational recoveries that you've seen? >> There's a lot. Mhm. >> Uh I I because of my uh profession uh I like like the the back pain thing, you know, >> because it's so like I spoke with a guy, he's like super well trained, you know, like deadlifts a lot. He he just go to the he does everything right you know went to the chiropractor uh and he eat clean you know eat whole foods and everything and he had like back pain for 10 years and no one was able oh it's the soas oh it's oh it's the rectus foris we need to stretch that we need to you know he he had like a whole routine you know just wasting his time almost you know >> like trying this >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And then he did carnivore for a couple weeks and the pain was gone. >> Yeah. >> You know, I was like, "Okay, but the bed you bought for $5,000, okay, it helped a little bit, but you know, and all the chiropractors and he was he was pretty shocked at that." So, >> it was just a like a chronic inflammatory thing in his back. Of course, maybe like posture has something to do with it because there is of course more tension. It's just biomechanics, right? If you have a bad posture, there's more tension in some discs, etc. So, but it was just he just needed to get down his inflammation in his lower back and the pain went away. So, so all of these money and all of this time. Yeah, that was pretty cool. >> Yeah. Well, that is really cool. Um, well, Ole, thank you so much uh for coming on. It's been an absolute pleasure and and I really enjoyed the conversation. I know it's it's like 3:00 in the morning, 4 in the morning now for you. So, I really appreciate to you you uh taking the time to do that and staying up. Um, where can people uh find you and follow you online? >> Uh, it's Carnivore Swallia uh like in my name here and uh yeah, it's on YouTube and uh same on Instagram. >> So, but it's only in it's only in Sweden is in Swedish, but you can like you said you can do some translation. >> Yeah. and certainly, you know, people from Nordic areas if you you speak the language and that's that's a great one to follow as well. So, and I know that there are people um that that do follow me in those countries. And so, um you know, do do check that out. So, great. Ole, thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure, uh speaking with you. Thank you for taking the time. >> Thank you. I appreciate you >> and thank you everybody for watching. Hopefully, you enjoyed that. Please do share that with someone you think that will find that helpful or just share that on social media. It really helps get this uh out there. And if you haven't already, please like, share, and subscribe. And leave a comment down below letting us know what you think and also what health issues you've improved, if any, on a carnivore diet. Thanks everybody. We'll see you next time.