Using Science to Improve Modern Medicine and Nutrition! | Jayne Bullen, The Noakes Foundation

they're suddenly seeing the truth seeing what's gone wrong and from when and I mean for me it's like I'm still in my 40s but this happened in my 20s where I went on the wrong path and it was really so far wrong like I went vegan for a number of years I went further and further on that Journey which was wrong and it's like okay well now we have the right Solutions we know where we're heading we know what's right and how do we change this and how do we not have to you know how do we present enough evidence to enough people in the right ways so that they don't have to keep putting margarine on their bread cuz they think it's a healthier choice than having a steak welcome to the plant-free MD podcast with Dr Anthony chaffy where we discuss diet and nutrition and how this affects health and chronic disease and show you how you can use this to optimize your health and happiness both mentally and physically hello everyone thank you for joining me for another episode of the plant-free MD podcast I'm your host Dr Anthony chaffy and today I have a very special guest Jane bullan who's uh coming over from the uh Tim noes Foundation to tell us about her work over there Jane thank you so much for coming on how are you good really good thanks for having me it's wonderful to be here you're very very welcome so for people who haven't uh come across you or the noes Foundation can you tell me a bit about yourself and the work you do there yeah absolutely so we we were founded by Professor Nooks I know you've had of on your podcast in the past I think um in 2014 when he unexpectedly kind of changed his life and changed his lifestyle and and then unexpectedly made a lot of quite a lot of money that he wasn't planning to make from a book that this read book called The Real Meal Revolution um and he was in the process of retiring so his family kind of said you can't you know this is unsustainable like you you're 24/7 being interviewed you're not at home you meant to be retiring um so they they hired me at the time and I kind of was the first staff member at the no whatson the noes foundation and we very quickly then grew into kind of a group that encompassed what's now called eat better South Africa um which are the programs that we run in underserved communities and then the nutrition Network which is our trainings that we our kind of global training um medical and Coach training programs and we as the foundation do a lot of research so that's primarily been our Focus was really to go and say okay how are we going to take certainly what Professor noes and many of us anecdotally understand about low carb and turn it into evidence-based science you know and obviously it's a bit crazy now it's kind of 10 years later having this conversation because of course the this the jury's out the evidence is there and we know that and it's it's almost like it's accepted science now but back then it was very much like a small group of us that were fighting against we okay it is still a small group it's just a large group of us fighting against convention and um what sceners standard diet but back then it was really a very very small group and there were very very few voices um that were very separate and lonely and I want to say um visceral and and were like the the front the forerunners which of course Prof noes is one of them were those Pioneers that really had to kind of pave the way for the rest of us and he went through many years of trauma into do you and and difficulty and was rejected by his profession and the actual Institute the Sports Science Institute that he founded to really get to this point but here we are and kind of as the next generation of recipients of the work that a couple handful you know there's a couple of those guys that were really there very early on saying this something has to change in medicine something needs to be done differently and now it's the real work which is the the kind of 20 odd year system change to actually get things better to get the Next Generation likely to have a healthy outlook on life um to how to kind of in our case actually save our country's Health Care system from utter collapse um from people kind of dying on the streets undiagnosed you know how do we get there what are the tools that are needed to take us there and that's of course a big big job that you and I and so many of us are now doing as kind of this Army that's trying to fix the mistakes that have been made over the last 50 years so yeah great really as as an organization as a nonprofit really amazing to be a part of this work and then doing our best and doing my best obviously as well as an individual to really go okay what's the best we can do and how do we get there the quickest we can get there which 10 years feels like a long time and it feels like we haven't done enough but it's actually our 10 year anniversary this week of at the foundation so we're kind of looking back and looking at the timeline and and looking at all that's happened and kind of going it doesn't feel like it's enough but actually it's so much and we've done so much so it's a beautiful Decades of really big chunk of time it's a big chunk of time I'm looking at my own life and thinking okay I been 10 years in this job doing this like is it enough what more can we do where next so beautiful time to talk about it and just mark it yeah well that's fantastic so so what are some of the things that you guys do at the nox Foundation to try to get this this information out there so the foundation focuses very much on research um or it's been until now largely the focus so in my first year at the foundation we got quite a large bit of funding that we put into six postductal researchers um at the Sports Science Institute and they were doing a mitochondrial kind of a very focused um small sample siiz study on Diabetes reversal since then we've done some much bigger different kinds of Trials um around particularly to a large extent our work's being around diabetes reversal um and kind of the way that we can Implement diet the way we can kind of build the evidence base for a low carbohydrate or therapeutic carbohydrate restricted diet more recently we've moved into academic freedom as kind of something that we really starting to focus in on as a foundation um we believe that our mandate is to question the science and to create an environment or healthier scientific environment where people are allowed to engage with questions um and you know Prof Prof no's journey of questioning the science that he had to a large extent created himself I mean a lot of that kind of you know carb loading prior to marathons um endurance carb cycling um the goo Sports goo that him and Bruce for I invented back in the day those were things that were like a a body of a body of work that he had built over many decades and he had to question himself when he became type 2 diabetic having run so many comrades marathons having been an athlete his entire life he had to question himself and then you know he reversed his diabetes very quickly and very very bravely at that time in 2012 and then said okay what am I going to do to give back and how are we going to question things how are we going to create an environment where there more where there's a more healthy opportunity for scientists and doctors to question the status quo were they're not going to be shadowban silenced mobbed taken out by the health profession councils uh which is all a lot of things he's been through yeah and what do we need to do to get there and that's of course a big thing because we're still sitting in a place where you know for example at the nutrition Network I would say under 10% of the people that do our trainings actually list on our kind of website and want to be listed as a low carb practitioner so they're doing the trainings they're integrating it into their work but they don't they still very very cautious to actually talk about that and advertise it as one of the services that they offer which is a problem in itself we've got to get to the point people are talking and being as Brave as you and so many other doctors are where they're saying this is the work that I do and this is my understanding of what the science is and we've got to change yeah and how do we do that is question well and that's the thing you know that that's what science is it's about questioning things it's about questioning the the known universe and seeing well hey let's pull this apart and see how it fits FS together um you know the science is never settled right science is about questioning and asking questions uh there was a there's a Nobel Prize winner in physics named Ivor Gyver who um who said that you know he he sort of challenged certain things and people give him grief for it at the physical Society of America the American physical society and he had he had a he had a chair there I believe and he ended up giving that up because he said that the um the American physical Society still argues over the weight of a proton but under these certain certain sort of things that that there's just like no this is settled no one can question this and something you know massively complex system and things like that they're like hold on a second we we can argue over the weight of of the smallest unit of stable matter and we can't argue over this massive system like that's a religion and so that's an ideology that's not science science is never settled um if it's if there's a consensus it's not scientific and if it's scientific there will be no consensus there will be people disagreeing all the time absolutely and that's what's so juicy and so fascinating and so complicated about being in the nutrition game is we can start to build our understanding of what the consensus all you know let alone the consensus okay the consensus is ultimately the food permit or the dietry guidelines that's what the consensus is and we can start to think that we understand it better or we have a very clear way of reformulating it and then there's there the outliers that you know bring us bring it very clearly to us that there are different ways that we have to look at this and that we are much similar and yet different and and that makes it hard and and I have so much respect for science but because you have to to get to that point where there's a rule but when we start to unpack how we got to these rules how we got consensus it's where the kind of myad or the Pand Pandora's Box begins and I don't think you can stop unopening it once you've started um and that's the problem so many of us have had is it's you know certainly on my own health journey and believing and trusting medicine for many years of my life and for you know sort of doing what the doctors told me and then doing what the dietry guidelines told me and following the low GI and then unpacking all of these things and starting to question actually what went into and then looking at the research analytically and and understanding like geez this is this isn't great you know this is things could have been done better and and it's with respect because you can take any piece of evidence or any piece of research and and totally tear it apart I mean we do it all the time you know it's like you just look at it with an analytical eye but we have to understand how little and how inadequate the research has gone into the dietary guidelines and human health is I mean it's it's really scary and it's like well where are the zero you know when I started to look at the sample sizes when I came from a more um commercial research and marketing environment into the NGO sector when I wanted to really give back in my career and started to look at the budget and the sample sizes I was like are there some zeros missing from me and know it's like why are there so few zeros on these numbers why are the sample sizes so small are you kidding be like we we spend you know 40-fold that on a beer labeling campaign the researchers to like consumer preference and here we're sitting with diet and what people are told around the world to eat that's going to like be what they feed their children for a good life I mean how is that right and how do we change it how do we get the funding in the right places and it we don't have the answers unfortunately you know that's a story is running a nonprofit that's trying to do research that defies um pharmaceutically LED research is that it's very difficult to get the funding that's necessary the big money goes to where the big drugs are and we teaching people to come off medication we we're taking them through the JY of medication removal yeah yeah and and the food companies too you know because they they put out vast majority of studies on nutrition and it's it's skewed just in one way in this sort of plant based high carb uh lowfat sort of Direction because that's what they sell that's the you know this this product products development model of research and it's really just just a part of the marketing budget really you know they're just putting money out there in order to push a product well and I think that's a difficult thing you know when you come from a Big Brand marketing environment you've got such big budgets to play around with and then to come into an environment where there's like you scrabbling for kind of an extra participant in a in a study um that's around diabetes reversal it's it's not right and we all know that um but the question is how do we change that we you know how do we get governments to listen to us in a more articulate way um how do we get them to understand the the risks and the potential and of I mean we've been doing it for years we've been going and knocking on our local governments doors and kind of presenting data to them and saying we've done this study here in this community um we've reversed X number of diabetics we've you know they've all they they off the hypertensive drugs they've normalized most things have normalized and we can save you this much over this number of years you just need to Pilot it so far we've got one pilot in a state Clinic which we're really proud of you know 10 years down the line we've got one state Clinic that's running we've actually got a room there and we kind of got coaches in there so that's great but we it's not enough you know it's too little slow um and and I'm learning with time to be less impatient and to be more compassionate and understanding of what it takes to tick through the system CH change process and we understand that you know we we know that we're doing this for the Next Generation but I mean my son's like he's 16 now and he was six when I started 10 years ago and if things haven't changed they're still telling him that he should have bread in his lunch box because it's not there and they you know tick tick tick are they carbohydrates why is there no bread like a couple of times a year I'm told that there's not enough bread in his lunch box it's like you know to be having the same conversation again and again um and what are we going to do as revolutionaries to change that so we're doing the work that we can which is really through training and through training the medical changing doctors and the way that they approach how they prescribe medicine and of course the textbook that we published is a a part of that puzzle which is there's now something on a desk that you can open hopefully instead of the MK manual or maybe at the same time at least even if you opening the mer manual it's there with its egg on the cover kind of saying hello there's an alternative here um yeah and on we go we keep trying every angle we can to change things ultimately well I think I think that um diabetes is is going to be the the foot and the door to opening all this up because you know it's been it's been shown in large clinical trials in humans to be able to reverse with a high fat meat-based ketogenic diet and so that's out of Vera health and other other U studies around the world and then a lot of people like Dr David Unwin and others are publishing their audits for their practices and and you know Dr anwin actually literally just spoke with him before this and he was saying that he just uh celebrated his his 137th diabetic patient to reverse diabetes and come off all medications and everyone else significantly reduces the medications and hba1 C's and everything like that and they save something like 76,000 British pounds per year just in their practice and uh someone did the crunch the numbers on that they if all the G practices just just did what they did and had the same results and that's that's been replicated all over the country and all over the world you know same sort of results happen that yeah that they would save just the British government um over 200 million pounds so massive massive massive amount of money and so I think that's probably the foot in the door there are there are places starting to move that direction people are starting to sort of hear this more and in Australia there was um a guy named Dr uh Muki who was sort of named Australian of the year a few years ago uh for his work in his sort of nonprofit working opthalmologist and then just because of that they sort of said hey do you want to be on this board for doing the the guidelines for um diabetes and you know things like that he's like okay I mean I don't treat diabetes but you I guess you know went to do with the the retina and he knew about you know low carb down diets and and how beneficial this was and so he really went to bat for kenic diets and he actually got it in um even though people were fighting hard against him probably you know on the boards of Cal companies and things like that insulin companies but he was able to get this in it was then officially on on the schedule for uh treating diabetes in Australia and now just the last week or two it's become now it's called um you know the the gold standard practice like this is this is the primary you know uh approach to treating diabetes now and so I think that's probably the way and when you start seeing that you start seeing okay well actually there is a very serious clinical benefit of eating this way and it's going to save trillions of Dollars around the world by doing this and really help people you know you sort of can't unsee that you can't put that back in the box and then once they start see that and they start doing more and more of those and they all of a sudden like hey my Cron's is gone you know my my Ms is improving my you know my I I I see people with COPD getting better like who thought that was going to happen I didn't you know and so all these other sorts of issues um type three diabetes Alzheimer's and things like that PCOS fertility issues in both men and women uh hormonal issues all these sorts of things you start seeing this stuff I think that's going to open the flood floodgates hopefully to people opening their eyes to how important nutrition is hey everyone really happy to announce a new sponsor for the show and for everybody down in Australia Stockman Stakes who are delivering high quality grass fed and finished pasture raised beef and other meats flash frozen and vacuum sealed to your door something that I've been enjoying a lot of myself recently as well they also have a great range of specialty items such as high fat keto mints and carnivore beef and organs mints with liver kidneys and beef heart as well so use code chaffy today for free order of beef mints or another specialty gift along with your order at Stockman steaks.com and I'll see you over there thanks guys yeah and it is you know that it's so interesting CU we when we launched the nutrition Network in 2018 we it was our intention was really to create a South African we're based in South Africa um a South African channel for us to referred patients to so we had kind of a lot of people are writing Professor no with 3,600 emails in his inbox when I joined for like there was no one that could answer questions medical questions back then so people were saying like my go I've had you know gout problems since I started low carb or my hair's Fallen you know all the typical questions and there was no one other than him at that point to actually ask in our country and then we built a little list that had kind of 15 doctors in it and I went to one of the cardiologists and had an argument with him because he was trying to get me on some Mediterranean diet and then we said okay there's we're going to have to do a training it's the only way there wasn't a training in those days for for any professional in low carb and we launched it and we hoped for 30 doctors in year one we had over 1,500 in year one that were not in South Africa unfortunately only eight of them were local and that was where we started to build the so from then until now we've had 38 trainings that we built and we've trained over 8,000 doctors around the world and we see that this has the ripple effect of it is so immense that our calculations run into over kind of 50 plus million patients when you start to add up how many the average practitioner sees every day every week every month the impact that those patients have on their communities and then we can start to imagine a world that is different and that actually has you know kind of patients that have reversed their they have taken their own Journeys and schools that understand things and but we have to scale it much more than that and much quicker of course so 8,000 doctors is is a drop in the ocean we have over I believe over a million physicians in North America you know how do we get how do we turn the tide much quicker and I guess maybe all the work that we're doing individually in these different places is bringing is turning the tide it just sometimes doesn't feel like it and that's why we have to be together and we have to say Okay this is what's happening here here we are together as a community looking at the impact um and then within that realizing that how little impact we've all had last year I went to an Endocrinology conference a local IND industry and E chronology conference where I was presenting some of our data and it was like going into back into another world that I haven't seen for 10 years you know there was just nothing about that it was purely about medication there was no recognition at one point there was an amazing um Kenyan Professor the Endocrinology Professor that was lecturing and he talked about you know bringing insulin into rural communities and the cold chain management challenges with and you know how they were really pushing so heavily for insulin treatment for type 2 diabetics and I went to I gave him one of our textbooks afterwards and I said why aren't you using dietary approaches you know this is what we're doing in South Africa it's the only it seems to be the only solution that we've seen in our programs and he said oh I reverse my diabetes with a keto diet but of course I can't I'm funded by X Y and Z you know God I can't that's not what I teach and that's not my programs are and there we have it it's like so there's this there these two channels of reality that seem to be happening and we think we know that we're on the right one but there's there's a lot of work still to be done well that's that's really concerning that you know this person knows that uh you can just reverse this with a low carb diet or a no carb diet but still pushing this because he's he's being paid to I mean that's that's not good that's really bad great I mean that's his research he heads up a big research lab he works in a hospital um that's the work he does yeah and we've seen you know of course we've seen that I mean I don't know your journey but I'm guessing it's also from kind of more clinical approach to Medicine along this path and we've seen it with many all of our medical directors nutrition Network Cina Kaji was a specialist physician who headed up our largest state hospital here where near where I live in Cape Town and she just also went on the same Journey where she used to give people like the she used to print out her own little pamphlets and add them on top of the dietry guidelines when she sent patient home but and kind of would say to them I could lose my job for this but I'm ethically I feel ethically obliged to tell you that you might die if you follow the guidelines the nurse has given you and you can try this you know so going against the law times and that's what many of our physicians have done they've actually had to defy their own ethical codes of conduct to do what they think is right which is a huge dilemma yeah yeah or or you know violate the the uh the rules for their ethics you know for their ethical ethical um burden that they have I I feel the same way I don't you know when when a patient asks me direct someone has cancer and they ask me directly is there anything I can do you know to help this I'm like you can't ethically say no there is not when you know for cold Frozen fact that there are 20 some R you know uh studies in Interventional trials in humans some randomized control trials and certainly just a ton of studies in mice where there is specific cancer how do you how do you say no just you know just take your meds and and you know say goodbye to your family you know because it's um when you're talking about GBM I mean that's it it's a death sentence it's a it's an it's an automatic terminal diagnosis you know when you have when you get that diagnosis it's a terminal disease and so so you know how do you how do you say that to someone how do you in in all in good conscience say that to someone nope that's it just just do this this is the best this is the best you've got when you know for a fact it's not you can't do that and whether or not you get in trouble you know big deal you know if you are you are less you you are less human if you do that you are you are losing some of your Humanity if you do that and you let people just go out and suffer and die when you when you could easily just said hey take it or leave it but this is something that you can do you can think about and you can look into it yourself so what do you what does one do in a dilemma like that because I mean there you sit you know other absolutely tell them you know but I I you know I I say it in a specific way you know I say you know they say well you know my oncologist said that all there's just nothing I can do I just have to do I said they they they will ask me sometimes is there anything I can do I say yes you can be as healthy as you possibly can be if you're as healthy as you can be you're going to be able to weather the chemo and radiation as well as you possibly can it's not going to hurt you as much you want to be as healthy as you can because this is a hard road to go down as if you're healthy then your body's going to be able to fight this off better it's not going to say that it's going to cure it but it can do a better job of it and it can help the chemo radiation and surgery to do its job you're going to heal better you're going to have less chance of of infection and all these other sorts of postoperative complications and and there happen to be you know this thing called the warberg effect which is cancer cells require 400 times the amount of glucose as other cells and so if you just limit that glucose Supply then you're limiting the supply of energy that these these cancers have that is mainstream medicine that is that is common knowledge we've known that for nearly a hundred years and so we use this every day in in um oncology for doing pet scans and we give people injections of radiol labeled glucose and then we do a scan and say oh hey look there it went right so every time you have a a sandwich or a bagel or some pasta or bread or God forbid you know something sweet remember that pet scan there those hot spots of where that that Sugar went up and those cancer is sucking up all that glucose because that's what you're doing every time you have a bagel or a sugary drink something like that and you know you said that say look this is this has been known you know since nearly a hundred years I mean certainly since the 1950s when warberg published his his Landmark paper called the origins of cancer detailing how this was a metabolic mitochondrial disease and detailing the the warberg effect uh which we still use today and you know just discussing that and say of course there's things you can do you know you can do these sorts of things and you can think about think about this in this way and it's like you can look up these resources these are the people that are doing the research on it these are the people in America and England and New Zealand and elsewhere that are doing clinical trials right now on GBM in humans and having good results and um you know Cedar siai and all these other places that publish case report so look into this you know and look at you know Professor C freed and these other people so you know I point them in that direction um I can't really coach them more than that but you I have to tell them I have to tell them and um you know and especially you when people come to me and you have a a uh an you know an office visit with them and they say that uh you know they asked their oncologist the same question is there anything I can do do I change the way I eat should I stop drinking should I do this and they said no no doesn't matter just eat and drink whatever you like you know and what the oncologist is meaning by that is hey look just enjoy your life you've got a terminal disease enjoy your last days right and you know you and and they think that the patient is asking them for a pass to go get drunk and eat candy right that's not what they're asking they're asking is there something I can do to help my situation and they're saying there's nothing there's nothing you can do it's hopeless that's what the patient hears and every time I hear a patient say that they'll tell me say that and they they said yeah say is there anything I can do they said no there's nothing I can do and their head always falls and I would say of course there's something you can do of course there is it picks up it's just like just being healthy just living a healthy life is of course going to help your situation you know then going into it so you know it's um it's not something that I could in good conscience neglect to tell people especially if they have directly asked me like I can't I can't do that and um even though you know it takes me another hour or whatever and and you know I'm going home late it doesn't matter you know because it there's always a lot of questions after you drop something like that on someone um it's it's important you know I mean I I mean what what is an hour of my life if it if it a puts this person into remission or B gives them another week with their family it's an hour of my life it's a week longer for them with their kids you know and it's gonna be longer than that let's not kid ourselves but you know you're you're giving something you one hour of your life and it gives so much more life to someone else like that I'll take that I'll take that return on investment anytime I just want to thank you so much for the work that you do you know it's so I was we both spoke last year in San Diego and your talk it just it touched me so deeply I lost my brother-in-law in 2012 to a clear bla and he when so he he died a couple of years later but he was diagnosed in 2012 and on the day of his diagnosis I'll never forget it I phoned my sister and I said what can I'm leaving the office I'm on my way what can I get and she said pop past the it's called Melissa's it's a deli in cap town she said get two bags of his favorite choc chip cookies and I did it and it was like a couple of years before you know my knowledge of low carb came in and listening to your talk last year I took so many notes and then I didn't send them on he's no longer with us you know he didn't make it but I thought back to that moment where I arrived there with two bags of chocolate chip cookies to console him and that was very much the path that you know ensued from there till his death a couple of years later and it's like if we had me if you were the person that had given him that diagnosis and not somebody that had said there was no hope because he was told that there was no hope he could be alive today or he could have actually kind of seen his children to the age of 10 and that's the reality that we're facing is you know how how do we treat how do we deal with these ethics and how do we as a healthcare community and we did this we've got a training which is by nutrition network is about ethic medical ethics and we did it straight after Professor oxus trial and it was very much around diabetes and diabetes reversal and it's all around the questions of you know is it is it ethical for a doctor to prescribe a newly diagnosed type 2 diabetic with diabetes drugs and and here you sitting in the cancer real it's the same story it's the same story in we're now seeing all of the things that we're slowly uncovering to be connected to the underlying drivers of well basically insulin resistance if we look at it from that perspective or from kind of dietary carbohydrates and we can as patients I'm a I'm not a doctor so I can be angry and I can look back to when I was 21 and my you know I was first told I had PCOS I can go through the thread of the 20 years of different medical professionals that I've been to that have given me the wrong advice without knowing it and all well-meaning and kind amazing human beings with such immense intellect and here we sit now going okay well you're one of the I'm sure you're one in hundred in your profession and amongst your peers that would take the time and would explain this and yeah how do we expand your voice exponentially well yeah well you know I mean I I think that's you know those are the right questions is it ethical to put someone with diabetes on medication you know when we know what there's something else that doesn't have these side effects actually has very positive side effects that um and they don't need medications in the first place but you know it's like how do we how do we navigate the system and all that sort of stff well you know we we could retrospectively asked that same question in the nurburg trials after World War II you know people obeying the Nazis say wow just following orders I was just following orders like yeah not good enough you're dead now you're you're going to die you know and so um that that that's sort of an extreme example but when you're in a situation where you know it's wrong and you know it's harming people you cannot in good faith continue on with the stat you can't and so you either try to change the system or You Buck the system or you do something to to work tangentially so that you can do what you know is right and you know it's not all that extreme an example using the nberg trials because you know they they were responsible for many tens of millions of deaths and obviously the World War II was you know around 60 million more deaths but just the atrocities that they were committing you know were in the tens of millions well how many tens of millions of people are suffering with these non-communicable chronic diseases that are entirely preventable like Diet abetes like heart disease like cancer like autoimmunity mental health disorders and and other you know pulmonary respiratory sort of diseases all these sorts of things they don't need to exist most of them and so you know if you if you address this and you say hey look if you change your lifestyle in this way you'll get this other result or you should get this other result at least get a better result um I don't think that it's possible to to know about this stuff and see how well it's worked for people and then not push you know push this forward because you you're that's what you're dealing with I mean how many we've we've literally sickened and killed early billions of people at this point over the last 50 years I mean it's literally billions at this point and so at some point if there's a reckoning whether in heaven or on Earth you know people say like well what did you do you know you just went with this system even though you knew it was wrong and you watched people die even though you knew that they there was an alternative that they that could have helped them why didn't you do it well that's just what it was I didn't want to lose my job I not good enough not good enough the doctor you know very good friend of mine's mother's been in hospital for the last couple of weeks with you know basically terminal diabetes and I've been kind of checking in every couple of days and saying how's she doing and she says well her glucose is 24 which we we're on the mil Mill per lader here and I'm like she's been in a hospital for 8 days like why is her glucose not under control why are the why are they not getting things under control she's never been offered an alternative she's been diabetic she's type 2 diabetic and Insulin dependent and she's been on insulin for 14 years and no one's ever offered her a carbohydrate like free alternative they've never given her the opportunity to she's only 72 she's not old she could live another 15 20 years and have a normal life but she's reached this kind of end stage of you know heart failure just from Decades of insulin and the wrong diet and and where does it end where does it stop where do we get to the point where we become angry and like and rebel against what's happening to People's Health because it's a tragedy you know it's it's it's hard to see and to do nothing I mean of course I'm not a doctor I'm not going to pick up the phone and Shout at someone at the hospital and say what the hell is going on with this patient but somewhat needs to you know if she survives the hospital and gets out there's maybe an opportunity to step in and offer Alternatives but there's you know she's from the generation that does what her doctor says she must do and that's take your insulin and do what you want and eat what you want and carry on in the same way you've been eating for the last 20 years which has killed you and here we sit and it's it's very difficult it's it's difficult not to as a patient be angry when you look at kind of the the ripple effect of it in families in systems in lives and in countries you know and that was one of my big drivers for this work was just seeing I lost my household we have cleaners or Nannies in South Africa and she was basically the woman that brought me up to a large extent and she was almost as wide as she was tall and she she died of a heart attack in her 50s you know and it was so obvious that she had very very Advanced diabetes that had never been treated or diagnosed even at that point so people are kind of dropping dead before they're given Alternatives which is the work we do at eat better South Africa we kind of went and said okay we're not going to wait we're going to go into some underserved communities or you know Township areas here and offer solutions to people and see if it helps them if they can afford it if they can eat better and and they have I mean it's been the most extraordinary thing cuz we you know it's not necessary to eat like a a very very pure you know meaton diet and to help your diabetes help your hypertension we get them off on very very affordable things that are like super budgets under a dollar a day in some cases um and it works it it gives them their lives back they they're reversing diseases they they're making steps in the direction that they've never been offered before in their lives so it's not an expensive First World um you know sort of wealthy solution we've shown that it's not and it doesn't need to be it's like there are ways to bring it into the third world into developing countries and into places where people have very little access to financial you know sort of high-end foods and they can do it they can adopt a ketogenic and really live such better lives so that's the message we're hoping to take to people is is you know just do it for yourself ultimately and you know become as part of your community find a way what whatever that way looks like it doesn't have to be like the best and perfect way necessarily obviously we would all want everyone eating a perfect really strict ketogenic diet if we could you know to treat diabetes and the diseases that we're seeing but there's there are other ways and they're also a lot better than where you're at currently so how do we get from here to there well there's steps that we can take you know Def and that's about getting better ultimately speaking of some of those steps what what are some of the certification courses and training that you you offered is this just to clinicians and practitioners or is this open to everybody who wants to learn about it yeah so we started with just only accepting people that had like a registered health care professional number so clinicians and um Specialists and then after a couple of years we realized that we had a waiting list of me it was building and growing in terms of people that were writing to us as coaches personal trainers um everything from kinesiologists to veterinarians that were saying we want the access to this information too we want to bring it into our practice we want to work with doctors so we have two kind of trajectories that people take and the one is very much clinician based and the other is coach based and there's about 38 trainings CPD CME trainings that we have that are online now and they range from everything from um learning group coaching in this program that I've just talked about eat better South Africa to specialize modules like around diabetes diabetes and obesity reversal ethics um neurology and a lot of them are kind of introdu introductions into different areas so we've just brought out our first cancer module after having tried for many years we finally got a couple of good oncologists and people that said yes um so our next one is around metabolic Psychiatry it's called metabolism and the mind and then from there we have an advanced certification program that ties into the Society of metabolic Healthcare professionals the smhp um metabolic heal MHP it's called metabolic Healthcare Prof practitioner their certification in the states so you can do all of these trainings to become an MHP as that part of that pathway or on your own you can just study whatever you want to and kind of self-learn as you go and what our latest training which is called ketogenic ties to our textbook so that we kind of see them as working hand inand with the textbook ketogenic which is really a broad spectrum generalist View at from a medical perspective how we're going to use TCR to actually replace replace pharmaceutical drugs I'd love to say I can say it I'm not a doctor I can say it but ultimately it's like well if we look at the entire system every system in the body and how it interfaces with you know kind of metabolic drivers and how dietary changes can impact and support different treatment channels for disease and it covers almost every system in the body and almost every current chronic known disease in some way or other and that's it's such a testament to our community and to the the incredible experts like yourself and so many of your colleagues so we've got 68 contributing writers 11 editors Global in nature the body of evidence that's so massive that it can no longer be denied as where we should be heading in terms of you know at least an alternative to patients which is what we've just spoken about is like patients should at least be offered Alternatives that allow them to choose and to do things that are actually going to work and that are not MediCal non-medication first you know it's like that I would love to have known when I was first told that I had you know elevated insulin that there was something that actually did work and that there was behind and so instead of adopting like a four spoons of fructose in my tea because it was low GI and thinking that that was going to be the solution to my health problems like something that actually did work like it didn't lead me down the wrong path that you know led to fatty liver disease it's like we actually have the evidence now we have the knowledge we know what's needed so why can't we just get on with it and we are getting on with it as a community yeah but we need it to be quicker I don't want my son to have these challenges that I've had you know I don't want his children to have to even ever know about this I know about type two diabetes is they don't need to they've got we've got the tools to prevent it now hey guys just want to take a second to thank our sponsor carnivore bar I don't promote many products because honestly all you need to be healthy is to just eat meat for those times that you're out hiking road tripping or stuck at work and you want nutritious snack that is just meat fat and salt if you want it the carnivore bar is a great option so I like this product not because it's just your meat but also because I want the carnivore Market to thrive as well and the more we support meat only products the more meat only products there will be available in the mainstream so if this sounds like something you'd like to get behind check it out using my discount code Anthony to get 10% off which also applies to subscriptions giving you 25% off total all right thanks guys yeah yeah well I I hope that very soon it's going to be something like COPD where we just like was just like well you know we told you you know that that was going to happen you know don't smoke you know you smoke and it's going to damage your lungs and this is this is what happens it's really not fun and so I hope that that very soon that that's that that's where we get to with with diabetes and a lot of these things like autoimmunity and and even heart disease and U possibly even cancer although cancer some of it is very aggressive and genetic in nature but you have a genetic predisposition you have environmental trigger and so I think that a lot of these will go away and as warberg showed if you have healthy mitochondria you can't physically get cancer and sea freed showed that in in experimental studies because he took it's called the the nuclear transfer study that I talked about in my talk though I don't think I went into too much detail on that one but he took the the nuclei of of cancer cells with all the genetic changes of cancer now cancers generally have all sorts of different cell cells that have different genetics but they all act as cancer even though they have different genes and so they took the but they took the cancer genes they took the cancer nuclei put that into normal cells with normal cytoplasm and mitochondria didn't behave as cancer could clone them into little frogs and mice fine they took the mitochondria but they all have damaged mitochondria they don't all have damaged DNA but they all have damaged mitochondria they took the damaged mitochondria out put those into a normal cell with a normal nucleus and normal DNA did behave as cancer couldn't clone it died and then to just put the nail on the coffin took healthy mitochondria put those into cancer cells suppress the cancer so if you have healthy CA healthy mitochondria you you should not get cancer and so those sorts of things matter and it really matters letting people know this and so that they are able to guide their lives and their children's lives and I I do think we're we're gaining traction and I think that we're starting to get to that point of critical mass where it's just going to start growing more exponentially I think it already has started that in a way some people say oh no no it's just going to go away but you know we have we have different news programs major networks taking this on talking about ketogenic diets and carnivore diets even to landbase oh how dangerous this is and this doctor agrees it's a bad idea at least they have they're talking about it and people go wait what the hell is that they look into it and they start saying like hold on a second these are like millions of people turning this around they're like actual real serious doctors researchers and professors that are that are doing research on this and and using it clinically to improve things so no no press is bad press and I think that that's actually helping the cause more than anything just made me think of Dr Andre swari I don't know if you know him he's a GP position in um New Jersey and he he was you know 25 kilograms overweight and one of his patients reversed their own diabetes against his recommendations and he you know that was how we found the ketogenic diet and how he then went on to do our certification he lost all his weight he reversed his own diabetes like what an amazing man to actually be that humble and to just and so many of the doctors that have come certainly to our trainings have have come through their patience and I mean first it's like how amazing and so much respect for you that you actually like learn you know there's this conversation happening but also how how embarrassing for the medical school that he trained at that like he didn't get this information and we need that to change you know we need to we medicine needs to be giving patients better options and healing not making them sick we don't want to go to our doctors and Physicians and come home worse off than when we went we want to to be the other way around and I'm prettyy sure most people go into medicine because they want to help people you know not make them sicker no and and yeah and I think we do need to get this into the curriculums and we we especially need to get the special interests and the pharmaceutical companies out because they largely push the curriculum right now and they push they they write the curriculum for medical school for the board exams for residency programs and then for Fellowship programs obviously and then the CME like the conferences and the different teaching as you are a specialist this is this is all funded paid for and dictated by the Food and Drug companies and then and if and if that weren't bad enough they send people to your hospital to cater a lunch and say hey look there's all the new data here's the new studies on you know whatever the hell all drugs yeah on their drugs on whatever the hell they're selling and and doctors serious iously take this as if this is part of the research wing of the hospital or something like that or the health industry yeah industry yeah and it's so it's of course it's difficult I mean the Physicians that are listening to this it's like a lot of people write to us and say like oh you know I need my CMEs but I'm going to get it for free at the clinic well and you guys charge and it's like well we have to obviously we've got to kind of pay for the work we do in some way and keep it as low as we can but if you the stuff you're getting for free is from marketing yeah it's coming from fisa's marketing department and it's not going to be the it's not science no um it's like how do we differentiate that really clearly in people's minds so they understand that you know the rep that's coming and giving you research data is giving you data that supports what they're selling yeah and we've got to stop that yeah and you get what you pay for you know yeah you get you're get free it means that they're getting their money somewhere else and it's because you're going to be they're going to alter your prescribing practices and that's going to make them money whereas if you actually go out and seek information the actual truth and you God forbid have to pay for it you know you might actually learn something useful to your practice and to your patience and and maybe to yourself too so um yeah hopefully well I mean obviously there are a lot of people you had a thousand in the first year so I think that that will hopefully keep growing and you know people watching this can hopefully say like oh okay I didn't know where I could go I've actually pointed a lot of people to the noes Foundation uh clinicians and nutritionists and coaches saying you know is there is there certification is there something I can go and learn from this where did you learn I was like I I am completely self-taught in this I just compl completely randomly had a like a holy crap moment and went you know had that light bul moment where I said like okay there's something to this and I just started digging into the literature myself and um so that's not typical so you can do that you know but you you know it's all self-directed but you know if you want someone to pave the way then obviously doing a doing a course with you guys is a great way to do that and then and then you use that and you build on it from there and then you then you definitely do your own research and look into studies and all these other things as well because there's a wealth of information out there it was shocking how much I found and of high level studies high level evidence showing that this is just completely backwards and I mean the only randomized control trials that exist for um LDL and heart disease the only five they've all shown that that you replacing saturated fat with polyunsaturated fats either like from vegetable oils seed oils that that either has no improvement or effects or benefits or kills people right those are the only two options it never showed Improvement and it's just the epidemiology that oh good goodness oh seed oils are so great for you it's the only mean because they just they massage these numbers and massage the data to make it look any way they want the only highlevel studies show that this was this was dead wrong and um and more of these things get Unearthed all the time you know like Ramon over the NIH I mean this guy's awesome he's he's he's digging up studies from 40 years ago that have been buried by anel keys and other pieces of garbage that they are um that uh that that that completely blow away the the cholesterol model of theory of of heart disease and one with with nearly 10,000 participants very carefully controlled because these were inmates they were prisoners or in institutions and so they they full on they knew exactly what these people ate day in and day out for years years so randomized control trial they controlled every single meal you can't get better than that and what did it show more people died of heart attacks and strokes if they lowered their LDL cholesterol um by by using polyunsaturated fats and from seed oils and things like that buried it right you know I mean that's a that's literally a crime against humanity I mean how many people could have been saved from Decades of illness and early deaths and they could have been there with their children their grandchildren their families they wouldn't have had a heart attack at 50 or at 40 or at 35 um and they would have been there with their families now you know I mean the only I mean the only reason that I'm I'm not sad that people like anel keys are dead is because we can't hold them on trial and then execute them that's that's really the only reason just to be like you are yeah exactly yeah and it's and I think that's the difficult thing is to to stay stay with the science not not to get angry not to necessarily look back too far and along certainly one's own timeline as a patient that's had the wrong diety advice for up to 40 years depending on your age which is what most people are seeing now is they're suddenly seeing the truth seeing what's gone wrong and from when and I mean for me it's like I'm still in my 40s but this happened in my 20s where I went on the wrong path and it was really so far wrong like I went vegan for a number of years I went further and further on that Journey which was wrong and it's like okay well now we have the right Solutions we know where we're heading we know what's right and how do we change this and how do we not have to you know how do we present enough evidence to enough people in the right ways so that they don't have to keep putting margarine on their bread because they think it's a healthier choice than having a steak you know when they especially when they're recovering from cancer or being treated for chronic disease it's we can't like have these conversations oneon-one anymore so we keep going keep trying to impact as many people as we can in bigger places um that are you know working with groups of people with multiple patients doing the work that you do which is just spreading so much knowledge to so many in such creative ways and it's like we don't want people to to be as creators creative as we've had to be you know me as a patient you as a as a physician or in the work that you do like having to go through your own journey of figuring this out like there are options now to train yourself to work through this knowledge that they're not enough options but there are some basic ways that people can kind of go okay this is I need to to level up I need to step up I need to integrate this into my practice I need to integrate this into my life I need to learn for myself we don't have to just troll through YouTube anymore but that's also there it's there so hopefully that like it's going to be they're going to be much more formalized future ways that are part of med school you know I don't I want to go to a doctor that actually has done a done some work on diet I don't trust dieticians unfortunately because I've been to so many that have led me along the wrong path that have been a metabolic disaster I would you know I go to a doctor and I want good advice that's not medication based as a patient and I expect that now and it's still not easy to find no and it's still it's still difficult and we need that to change quite quickly now we want the majority of people to have access to knowledgeable articulate integrated practitioners in all areas yeah well you guys are doing great work there doing that um speaking of which what are some of the studies that you guys are conducting there have going in in the in the works now so we've just oh sorry fine you finish I was saying you know I know Professor no has done a lot of great stuff with Athletics which is which is near and dear to my heart because I played um professional rugby for 10 years five of those years was on a ketogenic carnivore diet I've never in my life felt better ever and that's what that was one of those aha moments like that's what I was doing and I was I was sort of living to our biological design and that's why my body I taking biochemistry since then I'm like that makes sense I was running on my fat couldn't run out of energy and I was I was just performing like a superhero and um and that that he's done a lot of that sort of work because there's so many people oh no you have to have carbs prob you from a lot of his work you know in the early part of his career uh and they're all referencing him and it's just like yeah he changed his mind guys you know like look at the P yeah landing page so yeah yeah what the last couple of years we've been focusing on sustainability studies around our programs in E better South Africa so actually trying to demonstrate the efficacy of them um that they do work in a state in a clinical setting um we've just completed our Clinic our state Clinic based trial on a group of type 2 diabetics that are that have HIV positive and on other medications so quite a complicated sensitive group um and that's going to be published soon we've also completed a study that's really nice where we looked at the use of continuous glucose monitors on type 2 diabetic patients with just medical support and then another group that was with medical support and a coach and the kind of efficacy of that which is obviously incredible in terms of data so much more successful when you combine which is goes without saying when you combine a coach and a physician in terms of looking at diabetes reversal and we've just started a new study on type two diabetes reversal as well which looks at the integration of a coach a clinician and app so it's kind of the work of an app and constant monitoring combined so a lot of diabetes reversal studies that we've been focusing on and sustainability of our actual program we've had to really really prove that our programs work um so that we can hopefully prove to our local government that these need to be piloted on a bigger level not just in one click so we've kind of we've run 16 of our own self-funded intervention over the last couple of years and this one Clinic co-funded study in clinic and now we're hoping to get funding to actually roll them out into like quite a large number of more state-based clinics on type two diabetics and then also in some schools as well we're looking at implementing them so School meals cognitive behavioral changes in in students so we don't really look at blood markers in our studies on students we look at kind of their behavioral changes concentration different markers that are really interesting and we're hoping to do a lot more of that cuz children in South Africa eat it's pretty much the same as everywhere they eat Just Junk and the school meals a junk we're trying to kind of make it less junk not like a No Junk but we're trying to take schools in the step where there's a lot less junk and the plates and the macronutrients on the plates are a lot more balanced so that means still that kind of carb spoon that's on there but with some other things added so we call you that's why it's called eat better not eat perfectly we're just trying to get like it's like how do we get it 40% better and then maybe 60% better we're not going to start with 100% And that's just a really practical solution you know we've got people I met a woman who's drinking 8 liters of cocacola and like it's like I just I'm never she's never going to stop straight away so it's like how do we stop how do we take her as an example you know and get her down to maybe four and then too you know it's like pulling in substitutes pulling in better things and then bringing more rationalization to the diets and in South Africa it's we have very very bad or average the person that lives here in this country eats a terrible plate of food on average so there's it's really very much it's it's a kind of maze meal that represents about 96% of the calories on the plate and that is just pure white starch it's like purifying carbs which is just not a di that anyone can actually have a brain functional brain or body on which you know so we so a lot of our researchers around trying to show the efficacy of just improving a plate and then how that looks for a person's like ability to function and to you know reverse hypertensive major hypertensive problems which is the first thing that goes of course and normalizes within a week or two as you know I'm sure is you people come off the carbs and their hypertension goes and then we start to the other things and it's just better it's how do we get better better better better how do we take these steps always like the B low hanging fruit we keep Gathering as we go we keep trying to get things better macronutrients better not perfect you know from 90 to 60 90% sugar to 60 that's that's a lot better yeah yeah definitely well I mean I think that that's all uh obviously gonna have a very big impact on people's lives you you're getting you're incrementally improving things and and that's it you got to start somewhere and you know it's it it's not all or nothing with some people for me it's just like yep out none of this ever again this is poison not touching it and not everybody's there and so you have to you have to meet people where they are and work with them where they are and just making those improvements making some of those healthier choices getting rid of just a junk food first of all and then start making your own meal s and then sort of cutting out the carbs and try to cut out more carbs and replace it with you know healthier proteins and fats that's going to make a massive difference in people's lives and you know I talk to people all the time and they say why I you know I can't quite do this I I can't gotten rid of this and it's just like look that's the only thing holding you you know holding you back I mean you're doing better than 99.999% of people out there so you don't be hard on yourself if you can't do something perfect you know don't throw away the good for the perfect it um you're making improvements and you're improving your life and and it's just just a just a progression you know you just this just like working out in the gym you know you you're not going to be a bodybuilder overnight you're not going to be a professional athlete overnight you have to work hard at it for years and to accomplish a goal and eventually you know you keep working at it you keep making improvements you'll get there and um if that's your goal so um thank you Jane for for all of your insights today today and thank you for the work that you're doing at the noes Foundation um it's absolutely great uh to see how well it's doing and how it's growing as well I've recently become an ambassador of the of the foundation which I'm very proud of and I I I often will direct clinicians especially over to you guys to to seek out sort of where they can go to get more information on this so thank you for that and uh how do we go about finding out more about yourself your work in the noes foundation and how people support it so yeah thank you and just thank you so much for your vision and your courageousness in the in the area that you doing your research and it's so inspiring to me and to I'm sure everyone around the world um yeah you can find all of our work is on the noes foundation.org nutrition dork. org um and it's all kind of interconnected and I'm there so that's the easiest way to find me and our work that we do and we are celebrating this week turning 10 we're really excited about that we never thought it'd make 10 years as nonprofit it's like feels like a big thing we survived Co years yeah wow you know well you know I'm sure you'll make it make it many many more especially because this is something that really helps people and that's the thing you know when people figure that out and saying like hey this is actually helping people this is somewhere I can go to help myself to help my patience and to learn more about what can actually make a difference you guys are on the Forefront of this you're on the ground floor of this movement and I I don't think that it's going to stop here I think that this is I think that this is going to be main these are going to be mainstream opinions and ideas in not that many years I think it's going to be fairly well spoken about in the next few years because I think we're hitting that critical mass of not only patients but clinicians who are getting on board with this and realizing this and then looking around at all the other things and traditional medicine saying what else do we get wrong and uh people are asking that question more and more and when you start pulling at those threads you start seeing a lot of things a lot of things that we've just guessed at uh which is fine you know you don't know what's going on someone makes a best guess but the problem is that gets repeated and repeated and repeated and people just say oh yeah that's just what that is and they don't remember that it originated at a guess so that's not what you want to do it starts there and you have to do bigger studies after that so definitely so much yeah so thank you very much I really appreciate it and um I appreciate your time and looking forward to seeing you again soon thank you so much you too so lovely to be here with you and your audience yeah I'm sure everyone enjoyed it and you know everyone please do comment down below what you thought about this uh interview and what you think could be done to help all of our missions here to get this out to more people and more clinicians and hopefully get this into more governing bodies and guidelines and every idea is uh great to hear because you never know uh something might just Inspire someone to take action and uh could be the next big thing so thank you all very much for watching I'll see you next time hey guys thank you very much for taking the time out to listen to what I had to say if you like it then please like And subscribe to my YouTube channel and podcast and if you're on YouTube then please hit that little bell and subscribe and that'll let you know anytime I have a new video out which should be every week if not more and if you could share this with your friends that would help me get the word out and let me know that you like what I'm doing thanks again guys