Treating Cancer & Autoimmune w/a Proper Human Diet | Dr Zsófia Clemens

welcome to the plant free MD podcast with Dr Anthony chafee where we discuss diet and nutrition and how this affects health and chronic disease and show you how you can use this to optimize your health and happiness both mentally and physically hey guys just want to take a second to thank our sponsor at carnivore bar I don't promote many products because honestly all you need to be healthy is to just eat meat for those times that you're out hiking road tripping or stuck at work and you want nutritious snack that is just meat fat and salt if you want it the carnivore bar is a great option so I like this product not because it's just pure meat but also because I want the carnivore Market to thrive as well and the more we support meat only products the more meat only products that will be available in the mainstream so if this sounds like something you'd like to get behind check it out using my discount code Anthony to get 10 off which also applies to subscriptions giving you 25 hello everyone this is uh Dr Anthony chafee here again with another podcast of the plant free MD podcast another episode I should say I have a very special guest someone who I've known about for a long time and it was very I'm very excited to get on Dr Clemens from Hungary who's in charge of or a founder or in charge of paleo medicine I was a medical group and research group uh there uh Dr Clemens thank you so much for coming on it's a pleasure thank you for having me here good uh you're very welcome um I first came across uh an interview you did with Sean Baker you know for almost five years ago now back in 2018 and I was quite taken aback by it um you've been sort of in this Arena of treating medical conditions largely with um uh you know dietary measures and changes for quite some time now I think I believe since 2013 is that correct a little bit earlier yeah that's we call it 10 years into the diet field and all together it should be around 20 years in the medical field very good well can you tell us for people who haven't come across you yet can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your uh and your medical group and what you guys do yes sure so uh I'm a biologist originally I did my PhD at the summer West University Hungary and I'm specialized in clinical neuroscience and then like um special area include sleep epilepsy sleep sleep EEG and Neuropsychiatric conditions so click on Neuroscience so to say so this is my original background and as regards the the diet application of the diet and diet research um I've been into the field for the last 10 years we do have a medical group consisting of Physicians and we co-owned dietary assistants and video with patients without training disorders cancers epilepsy diabetes so anything that can be covered as a chronic Western disease yeah so how did you you know come across this idea which I fully agree with which is that you know these chronic diseases aren't really diseases but you know they're they're a um you know a result of things we're eating and then reverse you know changing what you're eating can reverse many of these things how did you come across that first and and how did you decide to take that into actual clinical practice um so um as I said you in a in the beginning I'm my primary background is epilepsy and actually epilepsy is the only so for the Holyfield in the standard um side of medicine we had a ketogenic diet or or dietary interventions per se that involves low carb high fat something is accepted um is in a as an option as a valid option so I knew the ketogenic diet I know about I knew about ketosis that it may be applied that it may affect conditions Beyond epilepsy too I saw children on a ketogenic diet so so this was my primary background and then um I I I met with with a physician in Hungary his name is chobatote and he was the one who did this in a practice that was a paleo diet and at the time about 10 years ago we combined what we knew his medical experience in my in my clinical experience with the ketogenic diet children and my my research knowledge about vitamin D because at that time I was also involved in vitamin D created research so all this added up and we founded a medical group and then other Physicians joined to the group and since then we are doing uh patient job where we are living with patients and we are also doing research work yeah publishing these results and things like this very good and so you said you should essentially you know anything that we call like you know chronic disease so uh which yeah which which makes sense um so basically anyone that comes to you with sort of an issue you're happy to take in and put them on your protocol is it is there a specific protocol or is there multiple protocols for different things yes it is a very specific protocol so actually there is only one perfect diet one therapeutic diet there are no more I agreements definitely I'm glad to hear yeah because there are different opinions you can hear that if you have a histamine issue then you need a histamine intolerance diet or if you have if you are actually I believe that there is only one therapeutic diet and you should apply this very strict um very fine tune the diet and if you if you come across any any severe chronic conditions and you you can do allowances right at the beginning or later on but this is the allowance part of the protocol it may not add anything it may not add any any beneficial benefit it is just more doable for for some patients who do not have that strict conditions so and what is the what is your your optimal uh diet so this is something that is a mid fat based diet and the fat part is very important we call it PKD which stands for periodic ketogenic diet we've used this term because this was earlier than the carnivore was around yeah I haven't heard about it so and we stick to using this term also because um this this is more specific in describing this therapeutic diet and this is this is periodic in in a sense that it is containing only those food items that were available for the prayer historic man in ancestral times which is actually meat and fat from Big mammals that's how it is and we use a ketogenic part 2 because these diets should ensure ketos is ensure and maintain ketosis so so these are the two major components it's what you should eat shouldn't eat and being ketosis these are two major components yeah well yeah you know like I said I mean I I completely agree with that only being one you know uh optimal therapeutic side just because I mean it makes sense biologically you know we are I've made this point in you know previously but we are one species you know the Homo Sapien sapiens you know and so we're going to have one optimal diet and I you know I hear a lot of people say well you know it depends on your blood type which is insane obviously you know it's like you know like one protein difference on you know red blood cells isn't going to fundamentally change your entire digestive system and it's not going to change your species either um you know animals that eat more metabolic processes are the same yeah everybody no matter age gender nationality it is the same for everybody that's it and and that's the thing and you know I you know I I asked people well because the thing is is that you know if if two animals have entirely different optimal diets optimal diets not just what they choose to eat but optimal diets then they're they're going to be different species you know like that's just I mean find me one example where that's not the case um you know I don't think that uh anyone who's posed that to me I've always asked them I was like okay you show me one example anywhere in nature of two members of the same species that have different optimal diets and no one's ever been able to come up with one I've tried to think of ones that I don't think any exists so I definitely agree with you and I think that the closer we get to that whatever it is I mean you know you and I I mean I'm not saying that you know I think we're right you know but uh but it is something you know it is something there is something out there that is absolutely ideal for the human race and and I I think that the evidence points to a PKD you know carnivore not just meat and fat and and specific like you're saying a high fat diet so I believe you're saying um if I if I remember correctly it's a two to one fat to meet by weight so that would be like 80 percent calories from fat is that correct uh no the two to one is according to macronutrient ratio right okay calories yeah macaron nutrient ratio in grams so protein to Fat yes right okay in energy it is about 80 to 20 yeah but we would like to speak about meat and fat because that's the practical way yeah you relate to food if you go to a butcher or you're not speaking of um energy or anything you you say you need 100 grams of red meat and 20 grams of fat or whatever so so this translates to a ratio of about 100 grams of red meat average red meat that is combined with 35 grams of animal fat pure fat so this is the basic ratio to start with for for everybody okay very good and so when you put people on this you know obviously you treat many many different people but what results have you seen uh you know as compared to normal treatments what disease are you specifically interested in we can go through go through the lot but um you know say say well um let's start you know start with cancer because you know in particular I was I was quite uh interested uh in your original uh discussion with Dr Baker and subsequent ones as well because you you treat people with GBM and other uh you know primary brain tumors and have had you know very good results and that's something that's of particular interest to me being being in neurosurgery because it's a devastating disease that that people uh almost invariably die from it's considered a non-curable disease exactly um exactly so it is very easy because you just need to look at the statistics so sticking to brain cancer for example we do have very good statistics because uh these statistics have been [Music] um researched published everything um and and you can look it up and unfortunately this is a progressive disease which means that the almost all kinds of patients that are in the end it is just the time frame that can make a difference when it comes to low grade cancer as compared to high grade cancer so the trajectory of the disease is always the same um and and and and this is where uh the PKD may be a game changer because uh we can put those patients into a into a stable state of the disease so usually what we what you do see is that with brain cancer um that there is a stable disease once they start following the diet properly which means that there is no increase of the tumor thereafter and and this is already something because as I said this is a progressive disease this is expected uh to grow because this is how tumors behave this is just how it is so if you can put somebody in a remission progression free state that's already a big thing and and there are other other benefits um coming from the diet like controlling epileptic seizures because sooner or later brain cancer result in recurrent epileptic seizures and then they need epileptic anti-epileptic medications to control this which which most of the case doesn't work as We Know so then then they also have the epileptic seizures to cope and you can get you you can become epilepsy free on the on the PKD if performed properly what you do see is that people start experiencing an improvement in the in their neurological deficits that they have because of the tumor because of the space occupying nature of the tumor so these improve if there's a fatigue which is very often often the case with brain cancer they improve their fatigue they improve their sleep so they can get back to uh living a full life actually despite having the same um sized two more in their head they just have to be very careful with what they eat they that there is not much room space to play around experimenting with this and that because if they start doing this then then the tumor starts progressing again so this is this is a lifelong diet therapy yeah of course um if a surgery is possible technically then the surgery should be done because it removes the the problematic tissue and and then the patient gains a lot of time possibilities and everything and what we also very often see is that and this is in general about two more steps if there is a tumor that is regarded in operable in the beginning because of the you know heterogeneous shape of the two more these two more may become operable in in six months for example because the tumor gets demarcated from the surrounding tissue and and operation may become possible due to the diet yeah yeah and how many um you know brain cancer GPM patients have you had over the years oh maybe 30 I would say something like this and maybe 100 or brain cancer patients in total I would say yeah and and the ones that are able to stick to the PKD diet you know very very stringently um are they all getting the same results just just maintaining their disease and not progressing in most of the cases yes but you know life is life is a real life yeah and and there are a lot of things that can happen and uh if a patient is well controlled coming back for a regular blood work control MRI control then if there is a mistake in a diet for example that shows up in the blood works and then we have still time to correct it so I would say if you see that consecutive blood Works show also show that the patient is adherent keeping lower levels of inflammation vitamin level is good everything looks good in the blood work then then there would be no recurrence or progression of the disease and and there are there are other patients who who do not come back with a with a ideal optimal blood work showing that there was something not okay either with their diet adherence or there may be other hindering factors or something that a patient is not even aware of because this can be the case too we not always know what we eat we eat what we are given to it but if this shows up in the blood work and if this is not corrected in time then this may lead to progression so so you have the markers that would predict a recurrence or progression so like tumor progression is not out of the blue there are always signs that come first yeah and um well I I mean even even then um you know just being able to keep something stable that you know people don't know like a GBM without treatment is on average uh three month life expectancy from time of diagnosis and so you know this is a very fast car very aggressive uh cancer and so it's you know being able to just halt that in its tracks is absolutely incredible and um and we'll we'll seem incredible to a lot of people who treat this disease and hopefully in a positive way they go okay let me think about this let me let's look into this because um you know it's something that you know absolutely deserves massive trials and uh and and studies to be done on them I mean this is this is this is a major killer this is the most common primary brain tumor and it is the most aggressive primary brain tumor and so this is this is uh no joke it's something that that you know really really deserves to be to be looked at um have you you published those results just one thing here yeah that I think is uh related that if you have a such a devastating disease and deadly disease then it is the best hardcore test of any therapeutic intervention because otherwise the patient would die in three months or similar to that but if you manage to prolong uh Survivor that already says something if you prolong Survivor from three months to six months that that is already 200 percent uh Improvement in life expectancy and this is something that that chemotherapy drugs are not able to achieve yeah chemotherapy drugs um and this is also published this is also statistics on average at three months um survival benefit over the no chemotherapy use which is which is not meaningful and it comes to a patient yeah and um have you have you published your results with your GBM and brain tumor patients um the thing is that uh this case uh is is published in a pre-print form and it was not expect accepted for publication in multiple journals and yeah trying to publish it yeah uh but um but the case is still a case it is it is available it is a preprint and since the preprint has been done the patient is still progression free alive and makes a full life this is uh this is around six years if I remember properly and with these six six years sorry six years progression free survival of 2bm wow and this is this is a word record now for gbn with with any therapeutic basically with any therapeutic interventions but within the diet field this is the vertical because there are others that have been published but there has been a progression in between or or died earlier than than this patient yeah well um also um yeah so I was going to say as well um you obviously treat other cancers as well I'm sure and do other how do other cancers respond to PKD carnivore diet uh yes there are others that respond quickly and and and reverse out of the tumor can be seen too these are the two moves that arise from tissues that have a quick turnaround time um like like the intestine so colorectal cancer reacts very well we have oftentimes see a fool so a disappearance of the tumor itself uh they have seen that uh metastasis or the activity pathologic activity seen on a pet scan disappears uh on the PKD so the brain cancer is difficult disease yeah because it is in a closed space but but other other cancers are a little bit easier if somebody is properly following the diet uh it was just funny too that the colorectal cancer uh it responds so well because you know red meat is you know colorectal cancer is blamed on red is that you're going to get you know colon cancer which is funny which is obviously nonsense this is crazy yeah exactly yeah and yeah I mean and those and those I mean I I don't even think you can call them studies I mean they were just you know they're taking pieces of epidemiological you know uh mismatched statistics and and sort of cherry-picking data and and deciding what to put in and massive amounts of co-founding uh confounding factors and uh you know it's been you know reproduced and and corrected for those co-founder confounders and absolutely no association between red meat and colon cancer and yet people still cling to this I I hear uh colorectal surgeons in the hospital still telling their patients oh and you know watch out for red meat you know that'll cause colon cancer it's like no Jesus no yeah yes I said it is yeah um gonna do about this this much because you cannot go against the whole everything the whole system the whole Pharmaceuticals and so what you and I are representing goes against what everybody else is representing and what is in the interest of everybody else yeah which is interesting to me because you know I mean I I can understand um you know different different you know uh interests like you know I spoke with Professor uh Thomas seifried at Boston College you know he does a lot of research into into cancer and and specifically gbms and animal models and he was just saying you know it's a shame we don't have money backing this you know there's no real there's nothing to sell when you tell people just don't eat carbs and sugar and you know so we have to sort of think of something that would make it uh economically feasible to profit off of this and then there'll be some money behind it to back it to push these these human trials um obviously there is there is money when you when you're investing in in a pharmaceutical because you can then sell that pharmaceutical that makes sense um but just just in that in that vein of of just sheer Financial uh interests why is it that you know like public um you know government Healthcare um systems which which much of the world has why I don't understand why they wouldn't be interested in it because it would save them so much money they wouldn't be paying for expensive surgeries expensive chemo expensive radiation you know millions of dollars on a CyberKnife machine and you know it it came you know these things are very very expensive and they're expensive to treat and so you know I I would just imagine that they should be all over this but I they just they just aren't which is crazy to me yeah they just they could just save Millions like billions really yes yeah and um well it could be too but that but that's the thing too that it is surprising you know that you know it it would it would save Health Care Systems a ton of money and uh just to just get on this and say hey guys just don't eat carbs just get on this new metabolic therapy and uh and you'll be set um so you were talking about epilepsy as well that's that's your background can you tell us a bit about about uh you know just the history and the science and uh you know what we what we know about uh how epilepsy responds to diet yeah so so there's a 100 year uh history behind the research between epilepsy and the ketogenic diet um actually the ketogenic diet had a 100 years anniversary I think last year but everybody forgot about it because it was the kovid everybody was speaking about anyway so yes that is 100 Years of research and experience behind something um that should already mean something because if you're speaking about the novel drugs anti-epileptic drugs there is only a few years sometimes an experimental medicines which is not comparable to 100 Years of research behind something so and there is also research data statistics everything so this is way more than just an anecdotic data as many people believe uh it is just a few cases on adults no this is not the case there have been huge studies done in the U.S in the 20s 30s 40s when when the ketogenic diet was the only and the only available therapy for for epilepsy and there has been nothing else so if you had epilepsy you had seizures you were put on a ketogenic diet and there was no other option and this was until um I guess 30 until the 30th uh when the when the first anti-epileptic drug was released this was called the phenytoin and children were just put on Finish Line and since then it turned out that if anything is one of the most detrimental anti-epileptic drugs it is effective to some extent but very detrimental to your brain has and it is not used anymore in the clinical routine because there are so many side effects it's turned out in 18 years we do not really know the side effects the the full side effect spectrum of the modern anti-epileptics um as compared to the funny twine so so that has been a massive use in the US there are research the research data showed that it is at that time it was 50 of the epilepsy patients who became completely seizure free on the on the ketogenic diet on the type of ketogenic diet that they used at that time in those hospitals because there are variations this might not might not apply for modern ketogenic diets but I think this is mostly 50 percent seizure freedom is way more than what is achieved with with anti-epileptics which are typically used in combinations if one is not affected and as also better for you in many other ways as well you're getting other health benefits apart from just the control of your seizures and it doesn't give you these massive amounts of side effects that you know can exactly make you feel pretty horrible yes yes so including bad sleep Behavior or alterations in children hyperactivity or developmental delay or all kinds of things emerge from from antibiotics and not well controlled epilepsy so it is very sad is is acute genotype still used to treat epilepsy in Hungary or not not as much anymore as much it is only used as a last resource and only only in children not not in adults yeah it's annoying I yes because it's much easier to prescribe medication and it really is a patient and the patient will come back in three million months and that's it but if you start treating somebody with a diet that is much more work on both sides yeah yeah not sustainable in in current in the current medical system and it's a yeah and I think we've just gotten uh you know pretty pretty lazy on both ends because you know people just want a quick fix they say oh I go to the doctor the doctor gives me something everything's better but also doctors is just like well like you say I don't have time to coach this person and spend an hour discussing it and and then to bring them back weekly for check-ins make sure that they're you know being compliant and um once a week is not enough yeah yeah what we do is a day by day feedback program across two weeks and and this is something that that that that is working nothing less than this can work in our experience so that's why we use this time frame yeah that's true um you know and the thing is too there's a lot of touches I've spoken to have said because because this is this is in the certainly in the literature and I've even seen uh you know the top institutions uh around the world still use this I saw a paper older paper from Johns Hopkins discussing a ketogenic diet for epilepsy and said well this is really sort of fallen out of favor in favor you know favor pharmacology pharmacological you know uh treatments but this is something that that still works and we still use it and to hear our results and uh which was great to see I don't know if they're still doing this this was it was an older paper but it's uh you know it's it's at least hopeful and a lot of people will say well you know it's very difficult but they should upgrade it really a little bit yeah probably yeah definitely yeah and um and this is something I do not see happening it's a big institutions because they still stick to the version that they used in the 90s and uh since then it turned out that cholesterol is not harmful for eating organ meat is not harmful uh you should eat animal fat instead of vegetable oils and I I do not see these components being involved so they they still stick to the version they they used before yeah that's very true and then some and then some don't use it at all they say that it's it's too difficult to get people to stop eating carbs and I I was asking I was like well have you tried like well no you're just in general it's hard I was just like okay well you haven't tried you know you should at least try and exhaust that Avenue before you just start you know pumping people forward at least inform at least inform a patient that they have a seat actually exactly it is after the patient what he or she wants yeah at least it should be given the choice um Institute is what they want yeah I I and that's the thing too I've I've had that discussion with many many patients at this point and um and I I don't think I've ever met one person that wasn't very interested in that um one lady her daughter was was unwell I was I was um at the Pediatric Children's Hospital you know covering um uh an on-call shift and there's a little girl that was it was very unwell in the middle of the night we didn't know what was going on we rushed her down for a CT and uh you know I just sort of I was just checking her I was just like you know something's wrong and I just checked her and her eyes were like dilated and you know fixed it you know or you know abnormal movements I'm like okay she's seizing that's what's going on here and she was just having these these subtle seizures that you know wasn't wasn't the big you know uh you know ton of clonic uh in nature but there were certainly seizures that they explained a lot of what was going on and so we were able to treat her and get her get her well and I was speaking to her mother after that and uh and just sort of mentions like hey by the way you know there's there's a data going back 100 years and you know pediatric epilepsy that you know you get you just get them on a ketogenic diet just stop eating carbs and this can significantly help she just went oh really wow okay yeah yeah we'll do that just like that you know no no effort it was it wasn't you know nothing I didn't have to try to convince her at all she was just oh she was all over it you know especially parents with their kids you know they're they're going to be very scared very worried and if a doctor says hey by the way there's this easy remedy that you can do well simple anyway it may not be easy to you know pry the cookies out of a kid's hand but you know it's it is simple it is straightforward and it can be done and so especially when like you say when someone is very unwell that's that's really the time to do something that's the Real Testament of of a diet if it's going to improve you in a in a in serious um extremists then that that is very good evidence that this is a very positive diet yes yeah even it is only ten percent of the patients who are willing to hear about it and maybe it is only five percent who really want to do the job on their part because I guess it may not be more than at least this five percent of the patients are hurt and and improved their life yeah definitely and and how do people um come to you is it does your clinic like uh recruit do you have to have is this just Word of Mouth that people are unwell and they find your clinic themselves or how do you how do you get out there you do not recruit we don't use any recreating um technique specifically it is just the patients who are looking for a remedy find us in some ways um the the very typical scenario is that uh patients start using the ketogenic diet but they do not see the results what they want to see and they do further research and and they find a carnivore diet and they are getting better but still not uh perfect and then do their research further and then they may may end up finding us and and then they they are put on a PKD and and usually this helps most of the problems that that was not that improved and the ketogenic diet or a low carb diet but that was not fully resolved on a undefined carnivore diet because the carnivore is a general term a lot of people understand very different things and and all in all it is very undefined and if you are coming from a chronic disease situation you need very specific advice and and and very um specific uh meat fat ratios and advice what to do with the medication whether supplementation is needed or not or how to control the disease and so on so so carnivore is good for when doing your own and then see the results but uh you know the medical profession is a profession because you you know more than a Layman who is just experimenting with something picked up from from the internet you if you have a disease you really need somebody who had many patients with such a disease over the past few years otherwise there is no there is no data there is no studies you can rely on you can only rely on your own experience with the same disease and actually this is what we have because otherwise how do you know what to say to a type 1 diabetic to achieve perfect results because this is a also a very quickly Progressive disease in the beginning and the same can be said for cancer so you have to be very specific yeah absolutely otherwise the patient loses time important time yeah yeah um and you're talking about neurodegenerative diseases as well so what sort of neurodegenerative diseases would you would you uh treat at your clinic my diploma diseases so this is Parkinson's not much muscle at all this is maybe it is the most frequently seen disease yeah there are benefits it it is just something that takes a long time much longer as compared to Crohn's disease because any disease that emerges from from the gut where your tissue uh regenerating themselves very quickly anything that is arising from the brain is is is more more difficult to to deal with but but we have seen we have seen improvements neurological improvements too with multiple sclerosis so gaining back movement but at least six months of strict diet adherence is needed yeah so for example we have seen a lady who was sitting in a wheelchair for something like 20 years and after six months on the PKD she was able to stand up just by herself from the wheelchair so this is a neurological Improvement yeah definitely and it's a thing it must seem like like Faith healing to people or seeing this I mean like like someone's in a wheelchair and it's like oh Jesus you know just get up out of the chair and I said homoseenius people because they don't they like that's not possible that doesn't happen you know people don't people don't you know have such a neurological deficit and then come out of a wheelchair but it does and I've seen it as well I I haven't seen as many people as you have certainly um with Ms but um or in general probably um with this sort of thing but um I've absolutely seen people improve dramatically with MS and auto autoimmune issues in general respond very very well I found uh to a carnivore diet or PKD diet um as well and um as far as Alzheimer's what what have you been seeing with that because that's obviously very devastating uh to people to lose their faculties and really their humanity and who they were as a person their whole life it is a difficult situation because it usually requires somebody from the family acting instead of the patient so it is not very often seen that a patient with Alzheimer's comes herself himself to us asking for her because they were not able to do this but if there is a family member that that is controlling everything around that patient then then at least the stabilization can be achieved and and Improvement in incremental Clarity can be improved [Music] and not everybody is able to capable to do this yeah how how long does it take normally before you start seeing improvements in cognition in these patients in Alzheimer's so so the the dementor it is depending on where the patient is coming from if the patient is coming from eating a western type diet then they already see big improvements in the beginning like um Improvement in sleep um brain fog improving in in Improvement in verbal skills the speed of the speech these are all improving yeah and then um obviously you know there's you know only probably a certain limit on what that can can you know damage done at a certain point as well yes I if I remember properly I do not remember any full recovery without timers yeah I wouldn't I would imagine yeah yeah but even getting who knows if you know because nobody's 100 perfect no of course yeah specifically an Alzheimer's disease patient definitely not not the best candidate for achieving best diet control because this lies in the hand of somebody else who cannot control an adult elderly person in his or her own life so it is very it is in reality this is something like fluctuating so yeah a daughter of um Alzheimer's disease patient she's coming back to me quite regularly and she herself says that we are very good with the diet but it is fluctuating the blood work shows that it is fluctuating if there are fruits in the garden she will be eating the food yeah and then she she is out of ketosis for a few days and back into ketosis and the whole process starts again but but she realized that or it was actually the sister of this uh daughter who told her that on the days when our mother is in ketos is she she has a better mental clarity as compared her look is better the way how how she looks at me is is very different from when she is not in ketosis yeah and so this is fluctuating but takes off some burden of the feminine even if there is nothing in the full recovery and and it's also yeah I mean and even just that is is absolutely phenomenal uh uh benefit you know and and just not getting worse is also a fantastic benefit and getting whatever Improvement I think is is incredible um and this also enables tapering down the medications yeah that we usually take yeah yeah which is also really nice you're not getting all the all the side effects of those um yeah and and Parkinson's as well have you seen good results with that we have seen improvements but but not uh it's another full recovery Parkinson's can be assaults may be associated with a myriad of symptoms those cognitive symptoms motor symptoms sensory and and many of them are improving yeah yeah very good yeah my father has uh was diagnosed with Parkinson several years ago and and thankfully I came across you know well I sort of rediscovered this because I've been doing it you know 22 years ago just because I stopped eating plants because I took cancer biology and botany and just learned how toxic plants were and that I didn't want them in my body and and then sort of rediscovered that about you know five years ago or so and and my father ended up adopting it as well just because I was having such good results and I was just digging into the literature trying to find out what we knew what we could prove and and what we could show based on the evidence that was already published and I was getting I was very excited about all the all the things I was finding out and so he became interested in that and he and my mother tried it and he had a massive Improvement absolutely massive Improvement life changing uh Improvement and um he yeah he was um didn't didn't have you know very very pronounced and profound Parkinson's symptoms they were still pretty subtle but his his memory was very effective his energy level was very affected and he was he just he didn't have you know the energy to do much more than get out of bed and go and sit on the couch and watch television and uh and even then you just see him he was just wiped out and within a month he was just literally had like a spring in his step was bouncing around speaking more before he was used he would speak very quiet he couldn't even hear him unless you were sitting right next to him and he would barely ever speak uh there would actually be days that I wouldn't hear him speak and I was I was staying with my parents at the time and helping them through some health issues I wouldn't say I wouldn't hear him say a word for days at a time and then all of a sudden he's just you know his old self again he's you know you know speaking bouncing around everything like that and and uh it was just amazing it was absolutely incredible turn around yes that's amazing yeah yeah and um perceived trajectory because you think that this is how elderly people should live yeah this is inevitable but then then you may realize that this is reversible at least to some extent you know and and that people can you know still live full healthy lives even even in advanced age you know my father's 82 but he's I don't know 20 times better than he was when he was 78. because he's just you know he's he's just yeah he's improved so so much and um and hopefully we'll continue to improve he's still you know he's still not how he was when he was 60 but uh he's he's a lot a lot better and my mom is doing incredible as well and so it's it's just it's just really nice to see I mean I really like you know getting this information out to the people and just and like you say just at least getting it out to them and let them make the decision and it's very you know uh for you know very very heartwarming to see people that have taken that advice on and really changed their life and and benefited from that I really like that um but it's you know obviously especially nice when you get to do that for a loved one and they improve so much and you get to you get to have more of them and more of them in good health and so I've been really really fortunate in that as well um you must be you must have you know a thousand stories like that where you've had people make miraculous recoveries as well sure yes yeah yeah and um what about uh like you mentioned Crohn's disease and that how you know the disease things in the gut uh would heal well obviously because there's a high turnover rate that makes perfect sense uh and uh and I've certainly seen that you know chromosomal sort of colitis you know respond very well and um everyone that I've seen go on a pure carnivore diet especially like a pure red meat and water diet they for Crohn's and ulcerative colitis they've had basically near full resolution of their symptoms within a few weeks and then on biopsy uh of their intestine they have no sign of disease within three months I've never seen one that had a positive biopsy after three months and so it's pretty incredible what are some of it what are you seeing similar things with your Crohn's and ulcer colitis patients yes that are very similar yeah it is so the chromos disease is is fully reversible in most of the patients yeah yeah and um what about what about rheumatoid arthritis this is something that you know we've seen like even in the literature going back to the 1800s as responding very well to uh you know red meat and water diets do you have rheumatoid arthritis patients as well yes yes yeah the date reverse disease too yeah yeah which is amazing it is yeah such a nasty thing too it's just eating away at your joints and it's horribly painful and it makes you know permanent destruction I would imagine that they you know wouldn't be able to correct the deformities and regrow bone and cartilage but uh at least it would just stop any any further progression um and that's something and it is it is uh appearing in younger and younger ages maybe 10 20 years ago it was the disease of the artery yeah arthritis but now the the juvenile Roberto this is something that is very explosive maybe the the youngest child I've seen was three years old and foreign yes and these small children undergo very in vasive therapies like biological Therapies that is not helping their disease it is just setting up um for more side effects lasting side effects without you know fluctuate this is resulting something like a fluctuating disease coming and coming back but but not not resulting in the resolution of the symptoms it is it is a lifelong condition starting in early childhood which is terrible now one it is it is actually reversible with another very simple method that nobody believes too simple to believe yeah what's the thing yeah and imagine imagine putting a three-year-old on methotrex day yes that's insane and exactly and then you in traditional thinking you probably would have to you know like what's the alternative their joints just Decay and break down and that's you know that's worse than getting you know just that that's what the protocol says in in in in a real hospital setting if you're a physician you cannot really go against the protocol um yeah and I I mean and that's that's another thing um these are very expensive treatments as well you know the you know the Demars and the Biologicals and all the all the other medications more and more expensive yeah I I searched your question doing a diet therapy instead of a biological therapy I think this is a number one thing yeah unfortunately it probably is and um you know having those those influences in our in our um or you know influencing the people that make these decisions unfortunately uh is is probably exactly where that's coming from unfortunately but I you know I suppose that's why we we do these sorts of sorts of things and and you know you know people like yourself and myself strike out and uh and just try to try to treat people the way that that we know that they can be treated and uh and get get results and try to get the word out there and try to have people see these things and say hey by the way you don't have to spend you know six thousand dollars a month on these bills that make you feel horrible and sick and stunt your growth and and uh intellectual development you can just stop eating plants and uh you know start go back to a meat-based diet and and Thrive now you I mean forget rheumatoid arthritis you'll have a thousand other benefits that you never even realized were possible yeah okay Anthony are you able to do this in a hospital setting um I I do it anyway you know um you know I'm I'm not um you know people ask me it just comes up sort of naturally you know because it's very obvious what I eat you know and um and so it'll sort of come up people ask me about it and I'm in good shape and and so people will say like oh you only eat meat well what about vegetables and all these sorts of things so you get the same questions and you talk about it and you know working with people that you know I I I've I've only come across a few you know doctors that aren't actually interested in you know healing people and treating people in the best way possible and when you show them they're like hey actually there's this this alternate method like almost 99 are are very interested and uh in fact there's only there's only been some clowns online that you know say they're doctors and and try to you know have a little you know Facebook fights that uh haven't you haven't been like that um but um or or people that just or just um uh not even doctors but they'll they'll just get a bit upset and like I can't believe you're saying this sort of sort of thing but anyone who actually engaged and actually like asks questions like basically all of them have been very interested in this and and so everyone knows what I do and and you know several people in my in my Neurosurgical Department have actually started a carnivore die because of me and had you know amazing results not all of them stuck to it um you know some more than others but some some are you know went strong and uh and have stayed with it but um you know I don't think it's I don't think it's ethical to withhold you know what I know from people when I when I know it can help them just like that that mother in the middle of the night we're taking care of her child and it was just say by the way you know this is something we have 100 Years of date on you know ketogenic diet stop eating carbs that can help your kids epilepsy wow really that's amazing so I have these conversations when they when and as they come up um which can be difficult because it's it's a very very busy like neurosurgery is is busy even for you know busy medical uh Specialties and you know it takes time to talk to people about this that was actually one of the reasons I wanted to do a YouTube channel was just so I could say like hey by the way here's this stuff get them interested and say watch these videos I don't have time to I don't have time to say it all um because I've got 20 other patients that I need to see in the next two hours and it's um but it's something that feels very important and can help people and I've seen it help people and uh and and especially when you know people are telling you that they're sick and that they're on well and they ask you like you know is there something that I can do I don't I don't think it's it's possible for me not to tell them you know and so I I do and um you know I I say it in a in a very um upfront way I say hey look you know we don't have large-scale human trials on a lot of these things but this is the information these are the studies here are some resources why don't you go look for whatever they have I mean some things that we have tons of data on like epilepsy like diabetes uh even Crohn's and ulcerative colitis there are a number of studies looking at a ketogenic diet and fasting we're called a fasting mimicking diabet that's just what keto is and and an elemental diets you know just just breaking it down to the macros and microbes that you need and eliminating everything else and that these have you know a better efficacy than than steroids in treating acute flare-ups I mean this is in in the literature and so I just I just point this out to people and just say I'm like hey hear the studies take a look see what you think and so you know I think you're pretty safe when you do that I mean some people some people try to top me in like I was telling a patient with crohn's exactly that and um instead of talking to me about it um some you know gastroenterology resident just went and you know tattled on me to his boss and instead of talking and going like well what are you talking about what studies are these you know like an actual doctor and a scientist who's you're trying to understand his uh his uh you know um specialty you know he just you know went to uh my head of department and was saying oh we're gonna you know report this guy to the medical board and they were like well why don't we just talk to him and just ask him what's going on I was just like oh yeah here it is it's all evidence-based bang here's all these studies you know and um you know it wasn't wasn't an issue but like yeah people get a bit shirty with it but at the same time you know it's all evidence-based medicine that's what we're that's what we're meant to practice and so that's how I see it and um you know I don't I don't uh I don't see that it's it's ethical to do anything else so that's that's how I'm gonna play that we'll see how it goes yeah but yeah yeah we'll just have to see I think I think we are you know we just have to change hearts and minds and and get this information out there but I I think it is I you know I meet more and more doctors who are coming to you know ketogenic or carnivore or PKD uh way of thinking more and more and more and more and and many many of them recently you know and I get a lot of people that reach out to me and say that you know they're a doctor or a resident and they're like wow I'm so glad I found this you know I feel so great and I've really you know started reading all about it I'm like I really wish I knew this when I started practicing medicine 30 years ago this would have been amazing and all that sort of stuff but at least it's it's uh possible now and so I think it I think it I think the tides are starting to turn I think we're still very very early days I was talking to Dr Paul Mason over in Sydney and he's just like no we're in a bubble chamber like no one knows about this you know and and indeed we are you know because um we're looking for it but I think it's becoming more and more I think it is becoming more and more um popular I've even had patience yeah if I look back uh to the last 10 years yes I I can also tell that there is a change in the climate good I thought 10 years ago I thought that we will get farther than this in 10 years time I thought we really got much further than this where we are now uh but overall um I would put it in this way in the way that doctors are are less hostile against against us or against anybody who is promoting a local carb yeah the GPS used to always be quite supportive I I guess because they have more direct and more permanent relationship with their patients coming back all the time knowing their patients better seeing results so um recently I've I've had a few patients coming back to me and saying my GP is okay with this he doesn't he says he acknowledges that he doesn't understand the word he doesn't understand what ketos is but seemingly this works so far this is working for him he or she doesn't mind and he he is not not too curious or not eager to learn or anything but for now that's enough if yeah if if he is just not hostile what the patient is doing he's not going against what he is doing because that can make her that makes a huge difference because we with a patient on both sides put a lot of effort a lot of work and then the patient goes to the GP and um you know the the the the GP just makes a strange gesture or eyebrow or anything and and the patient is devastated and and and left in in a dilemma so it is very easy to ruin just because of ignorance what others have done and worked all for months or years this is what we have seen many many times working with the patient for years stabilizing everything is improving good for full life and then the GPS or or anybody a specialist is saying something that oh I have a concern about your cholesterol always the cholesterol yes it it is always something to the point that if you do not like eight in eight out of seven then it is a disaster yeah and it is surprising to me I mean there's been so many big studies about cholesterol um that just showing that this is this was this was wrong and not only wrong but yes that's obvious that's that that's wrong if they knew the scientific literature for cholesterol cholesterol is not that meaningful as most person or as meaningful in in the opposite direction you know in other ways it was meaningful in other ways yeah it's good it's good for you you know like uh you know we've been plenty of studies showing that uh people with higher levels formation is caring information that you need to understand in the context of the the whole blood work but in itself it doesn't mean anything or yeah or something positive rather than negative yeah exactly yeah and I I had someone mentioned that the other day that you know they're they're cardiologist you know was you know saying something that they had to they had to stop eating meat and they had to go like on a plant-based low-fat diet and it just it really bothered me I was just like well you know you can tell your your cardiologist uh that they're 10 years behind the literature in their own field you know because like this is literally a decade out of date now by saying that nonsense yes and that that's a that's a verifiable fact you know it's like I'm not a cardiologist why do I know this and you don't you know it's it's not hard it's uh to actually look this stuff up and especially if you're you're supposed to be staying on top of this in major major Publications you know the journal American College of Cardiology published in 2020 a massive meta-analysis showing that there was no association between saturated fat um and heart disease and they said there's there's no upper limit on saturated fat just eat whatever it doesn't matter you know yes they already removed at the high cholesterol limit from the guidelines it says I I don't think that cardiologists are aware of this change yeah yes they're left behind by by a few decades yeah exactly um so so coming back to that do you what do you eat do you are you practicing a PKD diet yourself or or sort of uh yeah that's good yeah yeah and how do you feel I I feel okay I I feel I feel wonderful yeah how long have you been doing that yourself I'm doing this um I would say you know this 2022. um yeah it is nine years that I I do PKD very good I had yeah two good years with a Paleo Diet with a popular type of the paleo diet and before I've been I'm beating every everything yeah well that's great and I I am I more and more strict yeah me too yeah and that's and that's the thing too it's like it's it's good to practice what you preach and you know if it's if it's um so good like what you know why aren't you doing it's like well there is no there is no other way there is no other way because if you do not have your own experience then you you cannot really guide patients who are just you know in the first days weeks in their diet they come up with a symptom what would you tell how would you tell them what is the right step or what is the explanation that there are very typical platforms that keep being repeated by new patients like the Requiem fatigue diarrhea there are a few very typical um symptoms and you you're not able to find anything in the literature because there is no such literature this is just this is just clinical experience that you have gathered across time across patients and that's why all our all my colleagues have to eat in this way they do not have to but they eat anyway because otherwise it is it is not durable yeah and and what about your families if as your family uh been influenced by you at all mine is sort of happening that's a tough question yes that's always tough yeah no unfortunately they are not following that and that's um kind of painful uh for me but um I have seen similar family settings without other other people too yes yeah it for me it is very difficult to persuade a family member to start following leading in this way there are a few or at least know that the way how they should be eating but not doing or doing temporarily on and off yeah that's so that's already something but but most of them are not for in the diet but I do have a lot of friends actually many of my almost all of my close friends are following this time yeah well that's good uh yeah I think family family is a bit funny because you know they remember you when you were a kid and they were like well you know when you were seven you had this idea that you were like a fairy princess and how did that one turn out no so obviously you're wrong now too and uh that's I swear to God that's how it is sometimes the thing is that I'm coming from a doctor's family so everybody in my family how good is your father sister brother or Physicians so it is very and I I I'm not um I'm not a physician I'm in the first place I am I am coming from a biological background so I am the only one who is I'm of the black sheep and of course I cannot persuade them who are doctors yeah well but that's how it is you they are still family members they are still relatives so you just have to reboot this yeah and the funny thing is is that well a you're right and B you're the one treating patients and actually getting better results than they are you know with with their traditional treatments which is you know I think you can only ignore that so long before you you know you're you're in uh clinical denial really yeah well hopefully eventually they come around I mean you've been doing this for you know a decade now you've been having amazing results I would be you know surprised if it eventually they didn't say like okay well look let me see your numbers what are you guys doing exactly and you know let's see what's going on here because I think that that's that's you know the responsibility of any physician I've seen you know anytime you have a have a patient I have had a lot of people that have that I've helped and given advice to who've gone to their Physicians and they've you know reverse their diabetes hpa1c goes down to you know five uh from you know nine or ten and you know all these other markers improve dramatically and and their doctors are still telling them you got to stop eating meat it's bad for you and they're like have you ever and everyone asked there's like have you ever seen someone reverse diabetes the way I have they said no I haven't it's like so why wouldn't you why wouldn't you consider for a second that what I did could actually be of benefit you know and they just said you know what look I don't have time to talk about this you know you that's the same for the the nutritionist they just didn't want to hear about it um that's that's definitely the wrong way uh to go about things the right way to go about it is what my Mom's doctor did which is when she reversed her diabetes she looked at that and said how the hell did you do this what the hell did you do diabetes is a progressive disease it only gets worse we can slow it down but we can never stop it or reverse it what how the hell did you do this my mom dropped her HBO and see from nine down to six in two months just by just by eating uh you know meat and drinking water and that's it and and she just told her and just said the kind of things that I was doing the the sort of the research then and conclusions I was coming to and she was like I'd really like to talk to him I'd really like to take a look at his research and you know so we went in there and we had a really nice talk for like two hours and or hour and a half anyway and um it was like in my mom's consultation like 10 minutes and we ended up just sitting for like an hour and a half she's just like this is crazy and it's right there she's like right makes sense you know let's let's uh let's start making some changes and so I think and then she started really looking into it herself and looking at studies and looking at at other things and I said are tons of studies like that's that's what a doctor's supposed to do um and you're at least supposed to be at least neutral I had a friend of mine who had two carnivore pregnancies kids are doing amazing their their development is literally off the charts and um she tried to tell her OB GYN who's a great guy who's actually my professor of obstetrics when I was in medical school and he's brilliant brilliant man and a very nice guy and he was he was very supportive of what she was doing but he was just like I you know I'm not too interested in it but you know you keep doing what you're doing and um and the uh her pediatrician is basically in the same category but just said look you know whatever you're doing just keep doing it and this kid will be end up being six foot five and smart as hell like you know you don't have to you know and so it they should at least be supportive in that sense um but it would be nice if they looked at at a remarkable outlier uh and just said okay why is this now how did that happen I mean that's why we do case studies in medicine you say hey look at this this is a special case let's study this let's take a look at it and see what happens this way yeah but in reality there is a massive black backslash against case studies where you can present a fully recovered patient I I've been struggling a lot in the last 10 years to publish anything uh like a full recovery um you may have seen that we have case studies where type 1 diabetics have been put into remission remission bacon became insulin free and their own insulin production partly return which is a big success because otherwise you it's just trending towards zero and remain zero throughout their whole lives and in in such cases if we intervene early enough then the ones and production can be restored and whenever we did this for the first time back to 2014-50 it was just impossible to publish it because we got back an email that okay you haven't heard about that type 1 diabetes is incurable you cannot cure it because it is incurable and then yeah I think that the point that this is why we are trying to publish this case yeah and then somebody else may ask okay you you are you are saying strange things where is the evidence where is a published study you know and then you must get a shame that I'm not able to publish anything but this is also my fault this is the fault of the the publication system and they are ready to publish anything that is related to a progression of the disease treatment without a real result you know sell the results but not a remission not a recovery they're happy to publish this but but they they they they do not want to publish anything that is about a full recovery over incurable disease so this is how the publication system works and and and a base breakthrough is is impossible in my opinion and it's just a lot of effort that you put in publishing putting together study and you go through reviewers and always want to change something something like that and the time is it just goes away a lot of patience remain untreated you know who may have read this before and and saved their life or whatever yeah they they never get there because this study hasn't been published and and will not be published in a foreseeable future and I have to tell you that the situation is very similar for low-carb genres it is almost impossible to publish anything like these results in a local Journal yes that's the reality that's weird you know because they're there was um there's a there's a few studies I saw on passing mimicking diet ketogenic diet doing exactly what you described uh you know reversing type 1 and type 2 diabetes and actually and actually regrowing beta Island cells uh to to the point that these might it was an animal models so it was like rats and mice yeah yeah exactly but they would study that yeah and um and and and show the same thing they rewrote and started um uh producing so that there are parallels the you can relate to but so far it is about an animal an animal model that's fine you can publish when it comes to real patients with an unbelievable recovery then it is a big no that's it we need to find alternative ways too to make these results visible yeah well I guess we just have to make our own Publications or just you know complete you know keep getting the word out and then just you know have people just you know keep doing this and keep reversing this and have have enough doctors and people take notice they just say okay we really can't ignore this anymore and whatever sort of biases are in place will just have to be knocked off or else you know their credibility is going to be completely um completely lost uh which I think a lot of these these things are I mean even the New England Journal of Medicine unfortunately has been caught up in a few scandals in the last few years of actually you know uh like false of you know uh you know accepting studies that have been been falsified and you know changing endpoints and you know unblind so people who don't know you have a randomized controlled double-blinded study you people that don't know if they're in the treatment group or the placebo group and the doctors don't know if they're in the treatment or group of the placebo group and there have been some studies that were published in the New England Journal medicine recently that the these people that study unblinded it looked at the results saw who was getting treated who didn't Justice check the results found that it wasn't showing what they wanted it to show and so they started mucking with the data and mocking and changing the endpoints and uh which is which is flat out uh you know fraud and malpractice and and the New England general medicine apparently knew this and and published this garbage anyway which is insane because that that's I think probably the most reputable publication on Earth at least popularly you know and so it's uh it's a it's an absolute shame uh that we see this you know and it's um you know it's something that obviously you know we're gonna have to have to figure a work around I think conversations like this and unfortunately you know I was like oh I saw it on the internet you know it's going to be is going to become you know is going to become uh uh you know at least an outlet to get it to circumvent that nonsense but the literature is there the studies are you know the the data is there you have you know a ton of data and there are published studies you know that that corroborate everything we're talking about you know in different Avenues of you know Paloma anthropology and uh biology uh and uh you know genetics and um biochemistry botany all these things they all corroborate what we're saying and they all make sense in place together in the whole picture and so I guess that's the you know the best we can do for now and hopefully we uh just keep keep uh turning people's minds and and until this becomes too big uh you know until the secrets out and uh and you know we just sort of take back over again hopefully that's what I'm hoping anyway it's gonna take some time but let's hope for the best that's it it's gonna be happening at some point at some point this should be happening because you you cannot like people forever you cannot push lies or misguided science forever because it should turn out at some point yeah and um yeah the way people are searching for their own remedy has changed so I guess currently there are way many people watching YouTube instead of Stevie which is a big or or or sticking to social media sources or following um you or any carnivore and and you know nobody is telling the same thing but there are commonalities uh on which they can pick up and and and and find a beneficial content there so yes the patient choice is uh will make a difference at some point definitely sure okay well Dr Clements uh thank you for for fighting the good fight and uh you know I know that you'll keep doing that and uh thank you I enjoyed yeah yeah me too thank you so much for coming on um it was an absolute pleasure I've I've you know I've been um you know an admirer of your work for you know four or five years now and I was it was really pleasure to to finally meet you um what's the best way of people uh finding your work and uh if seeing more of your of of your stuff they can follow me on Twitter where I am posting a lot of material and we do have a web page which is called military intervention dot C1 they can look up this page for for further contents very good all right well I'll put uh I'll put those links in the show notes and then people can find you there so so take a look for that and uh and please uh you know uh do follow Dr Clemens and and follow her work because I think it's it's absolutely incredible she's taking this um not just in in theory but she's putting it in practice and she's actually helping people which is what this is all about this is this is interesting and it's nice to know about but it's really important uh to actually help people with and so I'm very glad that you're out there doing that so thank you for that thank you you're very welcome bye have a nice day thanks you too [Music] thank you