The ONLY Diet That Will Make You Feel Like A SUPERHUMAN! | Dr. Michele Mahr

as a psychologist I'm always thinking like person centered like what works for one person may not work for the for the next but when I come back to the carnivore lifestyle I almost feel like it is universal like it can't hurt let's put it that way and there's people that I you know that argue that and say well there's there's people that just can't do it because of diabetes or whatever and again I think it's this well let me try it for a week and now my diabetes didn't go away so obviously that's or I feel worse and and again you're going to feel worse you're going to feel worse to get better it's like any other addiction sugar isn't an I mean it's toxic it's just you're addicted to it like you just have to kind of admit it welcome to the plant-free MD podcast with Dr Anthony chaffy where we discuss diet and nutrition and how this affects health and chronic disease and show you how you can use this to optimize your health and happiness both mentally and physically hello everyone thank you for joining me for another episode of the plant-free MD podcast I'm your host Dr Anthony chaffy and today I have a very special guest Miss Michelle Mah who is joining me from Salt Lake City where she just ran the uh Salt Lake City Marathon Michelle thank you so much for joining thank you for having me Anthony yeah so for people who don't know who you are could you please uh introduce yourself and let us know what you do sure so I'm Dr Michelle Mah I uh have my PhD in Rehabilitation psychology ology from the University of Wisconsin Madison and I received that in 2016 so I've been a Prof an assistant professor in rehab counseling um for just about eight years now and traveled all throughout the US teaching Rehabilitation Counseling um and I focus obviously on the carnivore lifestyle which is why I'm here and not um began let's see I started I'll go back and into the the beginning of when this all began but I started as um a carnivore in 20 probably when I started my PhD my Graduate Studies but prior to that I was very much focused on eating healthy the standard American diet um growing up that's pretty much what I did and then let's see it all began when I was diagnosed with Celiac way back I think I was 17 so I you know originally from New York um new stuff didn't feel right my family was just like that I was losing a lot of weight not feeling myself um and so I was diagnosed with Celiac and then a huge shift obviously in my diet lifestyle everything um and moved very much a full force into a a vegetarian lifestyle so I was still eating dairy um but then it just morphed into and evolved even more into like let me cut this out cut this out because I wasn't feeling right so I thought I was doing the right thing um and but I just kept doing more of eliminate this eliminate that so then typically I was I was pretty much eating vegan for a good 15 years um and that did a lot of damage although I didn't realize obviously that I thought that was the right thing to do um now I do want to say there were some benefits because it's an elimination diet so obviously excuse me I was cutting out things like processed food and very health conscious but what I I wasn't getting the nutrients so what I had realized through that 10 to 15 years was my bones were very brittle um I had hair loss like I just and more than anything I just didn't feel good mentally like I had a lot of a lot of um like uh brain like fatigue and just not on point and so and I was always very active um and I'll get later into that about like working out and and running marathons but I always went to the gym I ran I've been in you know I wouldn't say like I'm not an athlete but definitely athletic right so if you add that to the caloric deficit of constantly you know running and going expending my energy but not giving it back and that's that was really taking a toll on me like other individuals that have done carnivore So eventually I just hit this point and it was during my doctoral studies I'm like why am I doing this I don't even I don't even like vegetables like why am I forcing all this and it was very stressful BHD and everything and then finally I just moved into okay let me introduce fish so it was a process like I think that's something that you have mentioned to a lot of the individuals like in your Q&A that they think it's just going to oh one day I wake up and I eat meat and call it a day but it really was a process for me like I slowly I worked with a nutritionist in New York um who was amazing and she just helped me to say okay A little bit of this and then it went to um obviously chicken and then I mean then I started eating red meat and I was like this is a whole new world and then eventually I just yeah and it's so interesting because when I made that I guess this decision in my mind during my doctoral studies I just said I'm just I'm just done like I'm done eating broccoli I'm done eating salads and I never look back and it's been almost eight years now so and I love it yeah so that's kind of why I'm here yeah well that's amazing so was it just sort of a natural progression of of what you preferred and what made you feel better that made you go carnivore or did you see other people that were only eating meat as well well and that what happened was I was listening to my body so that's one good thing I think like I'm I'm pretty self-aware which I think is a huge part of this diet and and knowing your body and knowing what feels right so again working with my nutritionist in New York she helped me to kind of like Journal like when do you feel okay when do you not you know what foods work um so it was a combination of both when I said oh wow like I feel really good not eating any vegetables I started of course doing my research and then I found like Kelly Hogan and um Charles is it Washington I think you interviewed him yeah yeah and he runs a lot too so I was like oh so like people do this this is a thing so then I just I kind of said okay well I'll try it it was one of those let me listen to my body and and I'll just but now like I can't go back like I don't want to go back and so it was a combination and I think once once I had the validation that even a doctor can't tell me what is right for me you you know what I mean it's like I I just didn't it's not that I didn't trust the medical profession but what they were advising me was like completely opposite of what I was doing and it was so I guess it was pretty shocking because I was doing exact opposite but feeling like way better like I was literally eating there was I'm pretty much known as like the bacon person bacon girl like I eat so much bacon I've e like I kind of leaned off a little bit of it but my doctor when I had would do would check in he would say you know like maybe you should Cal down with the bacon and I'm like sure but I feel good with it and so again yeah so it was kind of like to answer your question just a combination of like doing my research um and then reading a lot of books like I read like Tim noes and um I'm trying to think I mean I read I was so invested in this Anthony like I just want to figure it out like why is this working um and then I just kept on going from the yeah well that's great and so you you mentioned you had had some health issues that you were dealing with how how did that play out are did those recover or how are you doing with those yeah yeah everything I mean honestly like I just had my check-in um my gosh maybe like five months ago and the doctor was like your numbers are great now I will say that my cholesterol number the one that is not is it the LDL I always it's LDL right is a little bit High um and but I was like I know at first I freaked out but then I went back and I did like the ratio and looked at how in anyone who's on a keto diet that's going to be high and you need cholesterol so I didn't really I started to like get into not an argument but like kind of justifying like why it was um and then he was like well as long as you feel and that's it I feel good my numbers are good but more importantly I think because I am in the field of of rehab counseling and psychology I very much like study the brain in like Neuroscience um and so my mental focus I mean I've always been a really optimistic kind of positive person and I never felt any sort of um like depression but like even working with patients and like as a clinician when I was working in the field um I see I see like a lot of different things that happen and I not everything is food-based but definitely for me I noticed that I was able I was just sharper right like whatever my brain needed the fat the nutrients um I just excelled like it it's it was definitely a huge shift in a good way yeah yeah really good so yeah I mean that's the thing you you have all these markers improve objectively your health improves objectively you feeling better and then the LDL is going up and we're saying well that's bad but everything else is getting better the trend is getting better and obviously everyone everyone knows my opinion on on LDL and and cholesterol being you know scapegoat by the sugar companies should never have been blamed for in the first place and I think that lines up all your health markers are improving you're improving your health and so your your blood should line up with that and your LDL is going up and everyone's LDL in that situation who are lean healthy fit and and their bloods are improving in all these other ways that all sort of ticks up for the skinny people for people that are more overweight there's less of a raise or maybe even not a raise and so that's again in keeping with good health and so I think that that's absolutely a marker of good health having that that LDL come up as well anyway yeah and you know I think the other aside from like the marathon running but I also noticed even when I was working out I'm I'm very much into fitness so even when I wasn't running or training I would go to the gym like like two three hours a day like in the morning and at night like I just I just love it and again not for weight or it's just my thing so but what I noticed when I was on Carnivore like my recovery was amazing and when I before I when I was a vegan or even even keto and we can talk more about that like I think I think there is this fine line when people think well I'm low carb and I'm keto and I'm not bashing that that's awesome some cut back carbs as much you know as you can but there's a huge shift when you eliminate like even a little less than 20 grams of carbs and go into I think you have to go all in like you have to say like if you want the benefits right like I'm not saying that's for everybody for me it works but I don't I'm not wishy-washy like I don't I don't play around with it because it's just not worth it to me right like I don't want canola oil I don't want any vegetable oil in there but there was a time when I did when I was okay with that and what I noticed was a little bit of inflammation um I would get like siny or like flemy and my muscles would get tight so but when I eliminated all that and I was like pure carnivore like just meat only um went away it's it's kind of crazy yeah that's awesome yeah yeah um did you you said you were getting um brittle bones as well did you get that checked again has that improved yeah they said my calci because my calcium levels were really low I was also having some teeth issues um but everything I mean obviously you can't grow get back calcium and your B like you can't like build it but um no issues at all and I could feel stronger so I think that says a lot now there was a little bit of a transformation with like um weight game but it was more about like bone density because I was I was gaining lean muscle um and then my calcium levels went up and I don't I don't take calcium pills everyone's like what supplements do you take right that's another common question oh you're not getting everything and I'm like I get in the sun like I'm good like don't worry but I don't I don't take calcium um but yeah everything again going back to the the shift for me was the keto to the carnivore so even those 10 grams 10 you know that was or whatever I was putting in my body that wasn't pure carnivore made a big difference and I think I was able to absorb the nutrients so also with Celiac as you know you many years ago I wasn't absorbing calcium so I think that was like the the um ramifications of veganism was still playing out for a while um because my body as I was developing was not developing as it should because it wasn't getting what it needed so it took a while and I think I think some other like I know Kelly talked about this Kelly Hogan that for it was a good couple years where I just had to like really eat like a lot to get and that was okay you know I think I think other women too I mean men I'm sure but um at least I struggled a little bit with like the mental part of that like oh my gosh like I'm eating like 2 3,000 calories but I was n't gaining weight like I was just get my body needed to heal so yeah but it wasn't it was again not not a day it wasn't just a week it was a long time so the more years I think what you what I really appreciate about you is that you're so patient when people come and talk to you about this because there's a Dogma or like a stigma that it's going to happen overnight right like I'm just going to turn cardiv or and and then people it's like addiction right you relapse same same thing and then they're back to square one so I think if anything when I do talk to people that are interested in about it I I say it's a process right like just start slowly getting rid of the carbs and then be patient with yourself and realize it may it like it literally took me years there's days when I still feel like I am still recovering from I mean that's a long time when I was doing 15 almost 20 years of like vegan keto you know does that make sense yeah so yeah I just keep eating yeah um yeah well it's it's pretty crazy too because you know they say that yeah you can only put on bone density up until age of 25 and then it's just it's just all entropy after that you just your body's just breaking down but i' I've seen people uh reverse that and and actually improve their bone density go from osteoporosis to normal bone density within uh a year or two especially when they yeah especially when they do sort of resistance training as well and you stimulate the bones to grow in in um in certain directions whatever whatever direction of pressure that you put your bones they'll they'll stimulate growth in that direction and so uh yeah i' I've seen it it's not supposed to happen and yet we see it diabetes is not supposed to go backwards and yet we see it with autoimmunity um and it's it is always funny when people say well you're not going to get enough of calcium or something like that you can't just get that just from meat you need to get it from something else well you're not going to get it from spinach because they did that with studies with people with spinach where they gave them spinach and their calcium levels actually went down because of all the oxalates and anti-nutrients but um I always point out to people well um then then where does a mother Lon get the calcium for her CBS for her milk right it's like like well you know you you nurse and you get that for milk I like okay but yeah where did the mom get the calcium or the milk right meat right those baby cats are then nursing and then they start eating meat and then the majority of their bone growth happens after they're weaned off of their mother's milk and then they have to get that calcium from meat so you know if of course that we're going to get everything that we need um in the proportion that we need it if we're eating our natural diet and so you know just because we say that we need x amount of calcium that's because we're eating it in a context of mixed diet with a bunch of antinutrients and a bunch of other garbage that are that is skewing things up and that was I think we just need to completely reimagine our you know rdas and um and put them into a context of eating a proper diet it's going to be very different very different amount of uh nutrients are going to be required uh in that case yeah and you know I think that's also with vitamin C right so I've that's the other I guess caveat that people always say is you need Vitamin C you're not getting vitamin C but our bodies really at least from what I know do not need require as much vitamin C when you're on a carnivore diet because I don't have scurvy and I've been doing it for eight years like there's no my skin soak actually it's way better than it's ever been like I don't know so again I think that's another misconception yeah right definitely yeah yeah that's a very common one and and people say oh you're going to get scurvy and yet no one does and so that just sort of you can just sort of throw that away it's like oh but you're going to get scurvy it's like and yet I don't so yeah you know and it's that that could should be the end of it but you know for people that want to you know want to want to have something to say about it um vitamin C gets absorbed in your gut with a glute four receptor and that's also the receptor that pulls in carbohydrates and so they actually carbohydrates compete for binding sites with vitamin C and so when you're eating carbohydrates along with your vitamin C it overwhelms the vitamin C and so you need an overwhelming amount of vitamin C to get any in in the first place so if you are eating carbohydrates you need Vitamin C on a daily basis measured in milligrams whereas if you don't eat carbohydrates you need Vitamin C measured in nanograms so a millionth of a milligram right so much less you need much much less and also you don't need it at all for collagen which is what scurvy is it's a MISD development of collagen right and so but if you're eating meat you're going to get all the building blocks for collagen you don't need to make them denovo with vitamin C it's only when you're getting your proteins from plants and you're on a deficient diet that you need Vitamin C in order to make the make um the proper building blocks which is hydroly Proline and lysine but those come in that that readymade form from meat it's only when you get other source yeah exactly it's only when you don't get it from meat that you need to then hydr it with vitamin C so there are other things that vitamin C can help with is it essential I don't know but it's certainly not essential for making collagen as long as you're getting enough collagen in your meat yeah yeah well that makes sense and I think but what you just explained is not common knowledge just so you know no so I so I think a lot lot of times at least when I talk to others like in the general population and I start going on as a little bit like you they're just like oh then they just go get a cup of orange juice right like they just you have to be really invested I think in your health that is one thing that and as I've like listened to so many of your podcasts and there's just so many conditions out there and people and there's a range right like I think that's the other Avenue that I like I look at um like as a psychologist I'm always thinking like person centered like what works for one person may not work for the for the next but when I come back to the carnivore lifestyle I almost feel like it is universal like that's almost like it will work there's no it can't hurt let's put it that way at least I don't know and and there's people that you know that argue that and say well there's there's people that just can't do it because of diabetes or whatever and again I think it's this well let me try it for a week and now my diabetes didn't go away so obviously that's or I feel worse and and again you're going to feel worse you're going to feel worse to get better it's like any other addiction sugar is an I mean it's toxic it's just you're addicted to it like you just have to kind of admit it I think but that's again I'm a little biased hey everyone really happy to announce a new sponsor for the show and for everybody down in Australia Stockman Stakes who are delivering highquality grass-fed and finished pastur beef and other meats flash frozen and vacuum sealed to adore something that I've been enjoying a lot of myself recently as well they also have a great range of specialty items such as high fat keto mints and carnivore beef and organs mints with liver kidneys and beef heart as well so use code chaffy today for free order of beef mints or another specialty gift along with your order at Stockman steaks.com Au and I'll see you over there thanks guys yeah and and you're talking about like the University Universal Universal uh sort of appeal to it I think I think you're right I mean I do think this is something that's going to wor it oh no everyone's different okay is everyone different does some people need water and others need you know hydrogen you know liquid hydrogen like no it's like it's like we all need water we all do well on water we all breathe air there's certain sorts of physiological requirements for our bodies there's 60 essential nutrients um and uh this is made up of minerals and vitamins and amino acids and fat right we need these things and that's and that's pretty much Universal around everyone in fact some people need even more of these things like 70% of people make enough carnitine but for 30% of human beings carnitine is an essential amino acid you have to get that from meat so you know that and that doesn't come from plants so fully onethird of the planet cannot survive on or Thrive at least on a carnival on a a vegan diet right forget B12 right because no one knows about carnitine you you supplement with B12 but no one's everyone's missing the carnitine they're going to get really hurt and we're talking about kids and their their brains can't develop properly without cartin mitochondria don't work and their and their neurons don't don't function or form properly we don't even know about this right so no I think that I think that it is universal absolutely because you know it's just it's like like it the diet is universal to every animal species you know like it's it's a universal that that meat is good for Lions right that yeah eucalyptus is good for koalas you know this is just that's what it is right and when you have differences in uh diet to a certain degree that denotes a difference in species we are a subspecies we're Homo sapiens Sapient we're very we are very very closely related um I I always put this out there I was say to people well you know name you know try and name two members of the same species that have different optimal diets right now you maybe you do better or worse with suboptimal diets like people from a European background may do better on on agricultural food than Native Americans native Australians who only came to an agrarian diet in the last hundred or so years to any real extent but meat is going to be optimal for for all of them right uh one person came up with which is as close as anyone has ever gotten uh which orcas they said well orcas there are certain orcas um that that um you know eat a lot of fish there's other orcas that just eat a lot of seals and and baby whales and things like that and um and if you actually look at it they're actually being classified as different species now they're actually sub you know different species of orcas because there're because they're saying they're different sizes they have different communication they don't interact between the other Orca species and they have very different diets they have different diets so they're saying then that was one of the key components was like they have different diets that makes it so this is a different species that's that's one of the definitions of of of the different species is you eat something different now either way they're still carnivores right they're still eating meat because they have a different preference on the type of meat that they eat so type of meat yeah exactly so it's um but either way different species you know and um so even those slight differences makes them a different species right and so I just don't I I haven't yet found an example of that and if there is an example it would be the exception that proved the rule because nothing else works like that all species no e the same damn thing that is so true and now that you bring that up so I did a little um experiment about one of the the areas that I struggled with during this process was should I eat more red meat or white meat right of course I did my Google and research and what are other people doing um I gravitate obviously more to be honest with you towards like chicken wings not lean chicken breasts but definitely um but there are time I did an experiment before the training and I was like you know what I'm also in a higher elevation so I was training right my bread blood cells I'm making more bread blood blood cells like it was a whole different level right so I said oh let me eat ribey for like two weeks straight like forget the chicken just eat ribeye and see if I feel better like if my performance every day and I don't even mean like I got faster but how do I feel because I did like the chicken just I don't know I don't know if it was the Omega-3s like I I have no idea like I was lacking that or I I don't know but anyways I did it and I felt better I felt way better nice um after two yeah so but I had to like really again it's not that chicken's bad kind of what you're talking about like preference right but obviously when I'm when I'm doing like heavy training endurance training I think red meat is way better like I know I saw such a a huge difference in again the recovery so so I just ran that marathon on Saturday and I it's so funny like after the marathon I'll just share a little bit like everyone was running to the tables and there's like donuts and pizza and like tons of like and of course beer like everyone was just like totally eating whatever all I yeah all I wanted to do was get to like a Brazilian steakhouse I was like oh my gosh like I was like this is so not my thing but here's the thing this is what I noticed it's like Sunday I woke up and like Dr chaffy like I could have went to the gym like I was okay and I had just run 26 miles and I was like it's not even 24 hours and I'm not saying it was easy and I'm not going to say I wasn't sore because I was right but within I'd say about three or four hours I was like huh I could I probably could have went to the gym today and I've never I've never felt like that and I'm not saying it's all carnivore but I'll I'll give it 95% so yeah it's interesting yeah well that's fantastic so this is your this is your third Marathon you on as a carnivore is that right yeah yeah yeah no no carbs no carbs no carps February was right and so like February was my first one in Mesa Arizona um and I started training I was in LA in October of last year so I started training so only not even five months of training um but carnivore and I remember thinking when I was heading into Mesa oh my like of course it came back like I've never done this like am I going to be able to do this with no carbohydrates but the stress of like trying to integrate the carbohydrates when my body was not prepared for that um was too much so I was like you know what i'm screwed I'm just gonna I'm just GNA go for it like it'll be okay and I did it and I did pretty well so I think there was more it's a more of a mental right like this idea that oh I need gels and I need need constant um you know every couple hours like the UK can and all that and I'm not saying like marathon runners are amazing like Sarah Hall all of them they're doing great Boston Marathon right like I whatever teach their own but for me I didn't want to be on that up and down right like the more I did the research of like every couple miles you have to take something like my body probably wouldn't have done well in general with that because it's not used to it right but then I kept thinking well am I going to get my glycogen right because that's what happens you know but I did okay um one thing I will say is I had to add a lot more fat for energy so I think that's where for me was pretty much the deal breaker when I would hit like half like 13 miles and I started to feel any sort of like oh I'm feeling a little lethargic like what's going on and then I'm like okay I just got to like kind of it's mental tap into my fat resources because we all have enough like I'm a pretty lean person but in general I we all have people think that you need a ton of fat but I you don't right like even the leenus of the lean can do they can run very long amounts with very little um you know fat on them and so I think that's I think it's a misconception that's pretty much and I do think it's mental yeah well I mean just think about it there right you know people people say it's like no no no no you have to eat all this sort of stuff that the fat on your body is not enough it's like well then why is it so difficult for people to lose weight why don't they just go for a jog and lose 20 pounds of fat right if it's just like it's it's such a weak energy source and you just just drains off your body immediately um no one would have a weight problem you know it would just be everyone would just be lean as hell all the time you all you have to do is just jog around the block and you just lose five pounds you know and so if you you're running a marathon you know you run 26 miles okay one run one mile a day for 26 days and should lose all the weight that you need right so that doesn't look like that you know people are just struggling to lose weight takes them months and years to lose a significant amount of weight and so obviously that's not the case obviously that fat goes a long way has a lot of energy uh it's a lot of energy density and and you know you have more than enough energy for for weeks really you know and so yeah yeah and more and more people are coming to this so it's great to see you doing it as well I'm just running just a whole marathon is being like yep I'm not going to eat today and you marathon runners used to do that they used to they used to hit the wall as before they had all the refeeds and just drinking down sugary drinks all that sort of stuff marathon runners used to go and they'd hit the wall and they would push push push until they broke through the wall and then they get their Corners high and their second win and then they could just go forever right right before you you know sugar water you know started sponsoring these sorts of events and and paying the money to just suck down these sugar drinks and but what is that biochemically that's you know that's you run out of your glycogen you run out of your blood sugar but your insulin's still too high so you can't access your fat stores and so you know you're you Bonk and you just hit the wall and you just have no energy um and most people stop there but if you keep pushing and pushing and pushing you'll force your body to start producing blood sugar glycogen and ketones and in fact Studies have shown in humans that uh ketogenic athletes replenish their glycogen faster naturally than carb fueled athletes drinking sugar water right so when you do that when you break through the wall then you get into that state where you're just making all your energy well you know when you run a marathon you're already in that state you're already in your second wind you're already in your Runner's High straight off the bat so you just go and you never have to worry about because there is no wall you're already through it I'm already through it yeah that makes so much more sense and I think kind of like zoning out from the social media and what everyone's telling you and really just listen into your body at least for me that's what helped because I'll tell you the first one there was just so many thoughts about what you're talking about like uh maybe I should try a little bit of like almond butter right or bring little packets of coconut oil or do like I was thinking of all and then one day I'm like this is stressing me out I'm like you know what I'm just gonna go for it and it was totally fine it was actually more than fine it was good um and then I signed up so the other thing that I think to point out is not only so I did it in February and I'm not saying this because like I'm anything special because I'm not but it's amazing how the diet has helped so February was my first marathon so 30 days later so a month later I ran another one nice in March a month later I just ran my third one so it was it hasn't even been it's been three and three months so yeah which I think is a lot for someone who's not a runner um who now is but at one point wasn't um so I think again being really intentional about not not having like if I go to Whole Foods here's an example like you know on the salad bar they have all different chicken and meats but they also have like canola oil in there and they have vegetable oil in there like I don't even I don't even I just walk away from it now because if it's not I I don't know if it's like a mental thing but I know for me like I just don't even fool around with it and it has made a difference I don't know if you have experienced that or I've heard of others that even just a little bit can kind of throw you off I I certainly don't feel my best when these sorts of things get in like if I'm traveling and I go to a restaurant and you know has some stuff on it you don't know what they cook it with you sometimes I can feel a bit off you know my face will get itchy you know my nose will get stuffy I just might feel a bit bit gross or something like that more gets into it might get achy and sore you know my back might hurt a bit for a day or so it's usually not anything too crazy because I'm not I'm not eating like large amounts of of anything I'm really just I'm only just eating meat you know if something's is covered in sauce I'm not going to eat it um right and so uh I and i' I've sort of gotten better at well I've been always been good at just being careful about that but you know some places like you get eggs and you sort of you don't always remember to ask them hey can you cook you know do you cook this in butter or whatever you know or and and so it comes out it's just like you can just taste it just T you know it's been cooked in these sorts of oils damn it you know you're already like halfway through it and you're like [ __ ] you know but um you know it it's it's I do feel different from it I don't have marked health issues like autoimmunity so I don't I don't get like a big reaction but I don't I don't feel my best for for the next couple hours and you know maybe maybe in a day or so depending on on what it is and how much it is and but there are others that that get really affected by it especially with like autoimmune issues and they they might actually get a flare up I knew one lady POS of um you know native Canadian descent so she you know sort of Inuit descent a lot of in a lot of um meat in that culture they just they just only eat meat so she lives up way up north in Canada and that's just a big part of the culture they just eat a lot of meat and her daughter had very serious um reactions to any any plants at all growing up so they just went okay well we'll just eat meat and that's that's very normal for her for them in their culture and so for the last 40 years she's like 60 now she looks half her age but she um she's been carnivore for for over 40 years and then you know eating a lot of meat before that and because of her daughter just been eating meat but she still uses spices or used spices and Seasonings and then she came across my videos and I was talking about hey you know getting rid of that last little bit of these plant toxins makes a big difference and she thought like well that can't be it's just it's just spices that can't be causing my autoimmune diseases she cut them out one month they were gone right she had four autoimmune diseases and in one month they were gone she was like this is ridiculous this is just crazy and so now she's completely gone she's completely um in remission on all her autoimmune issues but she's very sensitive I mean just just seasonings gave her very serious reaction so she just has to stay well away from these sorts of things and you know traditionally you know she would not her her ancestors would not have eaten plants to any great extent up until this Century or this past Century anyway and so you they had absolutely no time to adapt to these things they going to hit a lot harder and in fact the spices and seasonings are generally the worst part there's a book uh that I have called the most delicious poisons which is all about spices and Seasonings and how these are these are the most toxic part of that plant which is why your brain is sending that signal that don't eat this that big strong signal it's not the plant that tastes like that that's your brain's reaction to those chemicals saying that these are toxic do not eat them and so that's why you're getting that big that big response when you put it on your tongue no no no don't eat that you know and that's because your brain's warning you that's so interesting because I that is one area I never I never gravitate towards spices like I don't even I did at one time when I kind of what you're talking about when I was keto I would put um like even I know pepper has had some I've had issues with pepper um there's some what is it in black pepper there's something that doesn't react well with me but I remember people would do like steak seasoning um the Montreal steak seasoning and there's some recipes like I'll I'll Google like how many carnivore recipes and stuff but I just my taste buds automatically just go for like the plane like I that's just kind of how I I am now and I don't know like I think I think that's another area that is it's good for me because I love the Simplicity of it I don't know about you and others that have shared on your podcast like have said that it's just so nice to know how it's the mental energy like I really don't have to think about what I'm going to eat honestly it freees a lot of space right like yeah I think I think some people get very it's the I don't know I think it's a bigger issue again that's just me looking at it from a public health perspective Ive but oh like Foodies right like let's do all these different sauces and and all these food is like such a big part of our society Western society that like that's how people celebrate and they drink and beer is full of gluten and they you know they drink and they eat and it's also like a culture like a cultural component to our society here in the US that I think if people stopped and really reflected on that like it would be a whole different shift so like if you're doing carnivore that's kind of a you have to learn how to navigate that at least I did because just going out and social events I would say that would be that would be probably the only area that I struggled a little bit as far as and and no one ever I mean people still are like that's all you eat you know they question it but I don't care anymore because I feel so great um you hit this point where it's just like whatever um but I do think that it can be a little awkward for I think it brings attention to other people that they're like eating all these carbs and you're just sitting there eating like bacon and wings and whatever and you feel awesome and they're eating foods that are filled with it's almost like they know right like so there's definitely they know I think but they don't want to go that route because they don't trust it because our the FDA is you know whole grain it's still there as much as like we're moving away from a little bit I think we've progressed um to move into more of a there are ketogenic Lifestyles you have to be mindful with that and a lower carb but in general it's still very much pushed in our society that we all need carbs so that's what people do so I think the social part can be a little bit awkward but you navigate that and people eventually at least for me you I think when you kind of own it and say well I want to feel like what you said earlier was really resonated with me I want to feel my best and I and I actually I have a lot of responsibility in my job and like doing my training and stuff like that's all I care about so if that means that people don't want to jump on board that's fine too yeah I don't care right yeah yeah definitely well I mean that's it all we can do we can only worry about ourselves and and take care of ourselves and and do what we believe to be the best thing for us if other people are interested in that and they see the benefits and they want they want some of that for themselves people are more than willing to you know to to talk about that you know it's not like with you know on the on the vegan side of things like if if you leave veganism like you are just excommunicated and and they just come after you and they try to destroy you uh we don't you know we're just we just we just feel good and we feel happy and it's like if you want to do that too great it's like well I don't think I can do that fine go away you know like it's just like no one cares you know it's obviously I you know I wish you the best and I want you to be healthy and if it's like a family member or a friend I'm very happy when they do this and they feel better that makes me happy but if they then go like oh you know it's too hard it's just this that and the other it's like it's fine you know it's like is there anything wrong what was wrong if I can help you please let me know but I'm not mad at them you know it's their life right um where like the other side of it is just like no you weren't real you weren't a real vegan you like no just like well you w a real carnivore it's like I don't care you know if if you think that this benefits your life then great if you don't then don't it doesn't matter to me um I want to I want to just get the information out there so people can take this or leave it you know it's just I I just don't I don't like people vilifying meat like it's some sort of poison because that's garbage you know it's it's essential to life and um you know so that's all what I'm doing and and this is what I do and if people want to emulate that and and get the results I get then great this is what I'm doing but and if you don't then fine but a lot of people do okay too yeah yeah and I love that you share the information because I do think part of why so many people are reluctant at least when I've experienced um family friends just people in general you know people at the gym is they just don't they don't know like they almost like just don't believe it right like it's ignorance as Bliss right like I'm in this circle I have this my what are they drink all those work preworkout stuff like all that you know and I'm like just so not in that that mind that's just not my life right and so when when I talk to other women and men at the gym and stuff and we talk about training and they're like so what do you do for pre-workout or whatever and I'm like I really don't I I actually work out fasted I love it um and so I think when people when you when they're open to it right I think that's part of it too is that they have to be open to this might be a lifestyle so you what you're doing and sharing this information and I remember I don't know if it's the same woman I think it's a different one but the one that you interviewed in Canada she's like 80 I think she has like 10 kids or something yeah so she was so excited too because finally people are catching on that this is real and you can do it and not only but like thrive doing it right like not just maintaining and just like people are just so like how are you okay like getting through and and I used to be like that honestly when I had a lot of carbs and I was a vegan introduced me whole different ball game right now it's just like you have so much more energy and focus and and I think when people can see that that it does work and it doesn't mean it like in a way like you have to be on a diet I think that's the other it's like a lifestyle right we're not just doing this for three months yeah like this is and you actually I I for me anyhow I don't want to go back like I have no desire there's no people are like don't you ever Miss like ice cream or or this I'm like no like I actually never never do I ever say in the last seven or eight years like oh I wish I could have like a donut or something like no because you feel so good giving your body what it needs that you don't care yeah so yeah that's like that's like funny it's like don't you ever you know Miss that other like don't you ever Miss back pain and diabetes it's like no I don't actually thank you right no yeah I'm fine yeah fine y it's so true and I think like being creative too I think also helps So like um Ellie is it Ellie is that how you say your girlfriend's or fiance wife L yeah Ellie L okay so she just posted like a a recipe about like I actually did it the chicken skins and adding beef and but being creative as much as possible for those that do crave variety I'm not one of them like I don't really care I'll eat the same thing every day I'm good but then it does help to have people that will share like recipes or different ways that you can do like a zerocarb um and and this is for other individuals that want to try it but like zero carb cheese cheesecake like Kelly Hogan does some of that stuff she'll talk a lot about so I think again really just opening up people's eyes and awareness that it doesn't have to be oh my gosh I'm never going to have anything that tastes good again but actually I feel like so much better not having those things so yeah it's a whole different and like you said do I miss diabetes do I miss like headaches or sinus issues I mean I had a lot of I mean I when I was a vegan just a lot of I was I felt like I was always just like sick not not sick hospital but just always I don't know I always just felt I was also living in New York and so I was a lot I was around like a lot of like riding the subway so germs and stuff you know but I just remember like like running to like the candy store to get like a ton of sugar to keep me going right as a vegan you can still eat a ton of sugar um and thinking well it's not fat like this is going to keep me healthy right um but always it's like it is complete opposite of what our bodies really need so yeah yeah definitely yeah that's funny that we you can you can convince yourself that sugar is good for you and like well it's not fat so it's fine you know this this will make me healthy this will give me that energy these carbs this is just you know sugar is just carbed and I need carbs and so we just just get in the form of a of a candy cane and that that's s fine it's pretty it's pretty wild that we convince ourselves of these things hey guys just want to take a second to thank our sponsor at carnivore bar I don't promote many products because honestly all you need to be healthy is to just eat meat for those times that you're out hiking road tripping or stuck at work and you want nutritious snack that is just meat fat and salt if you want it the carnivore bar is a great option so I like this product not because it's just pure meat but also because I want the carnivore Market to thrive as well and the more we support meat only products the more meat only products there will be available in the mainstream so if this sounds like something you'd like to get behind check it out using my discount code Anthony to get 10% off which also applies to subscriptions giving you 25% off total all right thanks guys yeah it's like that similar to what you said earlier like that Mind and Body Connection too right like your body knows it's almost and your mind knows and you can convince once you convince your mind of that even with like the marathon like once you convince your mind that you need carbs to get through it then I was thinking that or um what you said earlier about the the block when people hit the 20 mile so I had already programmed in my mind well 20 miles I'm gonna hit a hit I'm gonna hit a block because my glycogen is going to run out so the first marathon that already came in my mind and sure enough I started slowing down around 20 miles I was probably tired too but also once I kind of let go of that and was like no I'm just GNA push through this then it went back up again so it really is about I think a lot of times just kind of you know convincing your mind that you need you thinking that you need the carbs are justifying it um the other part that I think is pretty fascinating is like that whole like balanced approach that people always talk about well you need a balanced diet and like they just can't get over that they just feel that carnivore is not balanced does that do you get that question question often oh you're muted oh that was weird Okay so yeah so it's um yeah it's always funny these people say well you need a balanced diet right and it's just like a a balance you should eat a balanced diet can't you can't just eat meat you need a balanced diet and it's it's like what the hell does that mean like balance with what it's like you know the balance of Good and Evil you know so have to have like a good thing balanced you know is balanced right and so it's just like you know you need food nutrients Balan with poison and uh and garbage right you have to have a balance right you can't just good that would just be good for you then it has to be balanced with things that are bad for you obviously um you know what a balance really means is you get balanced nutrition you get all the the 60 essential nutrients that you need in the proportion that you need them that's a stake yeah that's that that's what that is you know steak is a balanced diet has a a perfect balance of all the essential nutrients that you need in the proportion that you need them and um you know when people say well you need a balance of all the different food groups and that's a different thing that's that's that's been sort of bastardized they say well you know you need a balance of the food groups it's like no you need a balance of nutrients you need a balance nutrition and so when they think well you need a balance of the food groups need some you know protein you don't want the animal fat though you want some carbs you want some veggies and all different sorts of colors you have to eat the rain Bo is apparently that's a thing we should just eat bags of Skittles I guess and right yeah it's like I mean what what what what essential nutrient is is uh does purple mean you know what I mean like it's like oh I I'm feeling a little low on purple I got to get something purple in me you know it's like it's just so strange we're just going by colors now is this a is this a picture book kindergarten like no this is like this is this is actual nutrition so you they're saying well you need a balance of all these different sorts of food groups well that's saying is you have no idea what nutrients you actually need and you're just trying to just use the shotgun approach to just try to cover your bases and that and that's fine if you have no idea what you're doing but if you do know what you're doing then then you should just actually go for those Focus nutrients right because not no you don't just need random plants you don't just need random carbs you don't just need random food you need specific nutrients and so that's that's the that's what a balance diet is it's a balance of the essential macro and micronutrients that you have to have and if you know what those are then you just go for them because it's because people have been fooled into thinking that everything is has nutrients you just need to get all these nutrients and there's nothing bad about anything that you eat except for meat and fat obviously that's bad but everything else it's just it's only good it's all positive so it doesn't matter if you eat this that and the other and you eat too much of this or too little whatever it's just it's all positive it's fine you just need to eat enough of it keep eating keep going because you need to get all these nutrients right but no that's not true these things can cause harm in fact the vast majority of things in this universe will kill you if ingested right and so you know you need to be mindful of what you're putting in your body and so it's um it's it's it's very fool hearty to just say oh we just eat all this sort of stuff no there are things that cause harm and that's why I always tell people it's as important it's really more important or at least as important what not to eat as what to eat because you know the meat you need the meat you need those essential nutrients but these other things cause harm and so it's not just about well you can get all these nutrients no but they the you get the bad with the good and that's what people aren't appreciating um they're not they're not appreciating just how much plants like to stay alive and just how much what they're willing to do to stop you from killing them and eating them you know just like animals they don't want to die you put an animal in a corner and and you know see what it will defend its life you know with your life if it has to right so it's it's um that's how life is it's kill or be killed for plants as well as animals and people just simply don't give plants the respect they deserve yeah and you know what I love that you said that about you're not re like people don't realize yeah well broccoli is good they think broccoli is good because it has vitamin C but let's we're not forgetting like you said all the other things that it's actually it it's toxic right but they focus hyperfocus on but it broccoli is good for you and again I think a lot of it is the the societal Norms that we've created here and and money and everything else that goes into the FDA and like what we advertise is pretty much people have to have a lot of not I don't want to say willpower because I don't always believe in that but more about it's like your selfworth like you have to really say you know what like I'm worth more and really looking into this instead of just believing what doctors say that tell me I need to eat a balanced diet like and and going with what advertisement says or what my friend say and even like especially I think that's why I I think about like preventative and and like our youth and they're so brainwashed that this is what a balanced side is and so I love when I see like a carnivore mom like feeding your kids like meat and really like just focusing on that now I do think again that's a whole different area but children may need different I see different carnivore moms that will say well we'll have a little bit of vegetables here and there as the developing stages but but when I see like kids that are just like living off sugar and thinking that that's okay and they're eating a or even like the vegan lifestyle like I never belittle anyone because I was there but once you become aware you can't become unaware right so once that light opens up that this could actually work and I can not only work but I'm going to feel 10 times better without the the things that everyone's been telling me I'm supposed to eat is just a whole different it's a GameChanger but I think you have to be prepared sometimes um for like a little bit of backlash because people will question it um and that's that's okay if you're you know knowledgeable and and know what you're doing like you said kind of focusing on the nutrients another part that I've noticed at least with other carnivores too um is that I don't really eat much like I don't eat often I've never been a grazer in general but when I do eat it's very nutrient dense very kind of to tap into what you just said is so important that like if I not what I'm training but if I just in normal working out life it'll be like one meal a day but that one meal is going to have like like you said like a ribeye and bacon and fat and it it's going to keep me going for a good 24 hours I mean not all the time but there are times when I'll have like two meals a day and people will say well don't you don't you need to eat more like you said eat more more more more but I'm like no because once I have everything I need like that's sustainable it's it's Nutri or even salmon like I'll eat salmon if I'm like want craving like Omega-3s again just like really listening to my body and then what I love about it is it's simple just like eat my one meal and call it a day like it's a good it's a good feeling yeah definitely I don't know how people like I don't know how people have the time to like eat all day like every hour you know what I mean like yeah yeah it's it's so much better yeah like I just get up I go I I just get ready I go I just do my thing I don't think about food I love it yeah I don't my you know my my secretary at the office she doesn't even schedule me lunches anymore like it's just it's just patience all the way through I no breaks it's just and you just go it would be nice to have a break but you know at the same time um you know it's see more people and we're quite busy so you know it's it's fine and um it's uh it's it's such a it's such a release of time that you're not thinking about preparing or eating food it's so it's so easy uh this way it just freeze up so much time and you're not beholding to that the whole restaurant culture where you're just constantly going out to eat constantly going to to coffee and drinks and food and your entire life is wrapped up around eating or drinking something people don't go out and do things I you know asking people you know like you know what do you do do for fun they're like oh yeah I like to check out new restaurants and things like that I'm like that's a hobby you're like what you're like right like that's not a hobby you know that's that's um that's no that's just gluttony you know so um I was G to ask you though um oh sorry you say no I was just going to mention like what you said about this idea of um like the Simplicity of it right so there's that idea that okay I don't have to think about what I'm going to eat how but not only that but you're not even the things that you would add are like actually hurting you anyway so it's almost it's like a win-win like one you're eliminating time space energy your brain can focus on things that are good for you or helping others like you are and like those things but then you're also it's not like you're just like not eating you're still you're not adding crap into your body like it's just I don't know that's a whole another but you just once you start that that kind of like fasted way naturally though right like you know fasting been everybody getes oh I'm I fast interment fasting but then when they when they eat it doesn't matter if you're interment and fasting because then when you eat if you eat a bunch of carbs I'm I mean it's also that's not like making it better right like so I don't know there's like that whole there's so many different Lifestyles that people fall into so yeah yeah but go ahead I'm sorry you no you're right um I was just gonna ask so how has this affected your your uh your practice and how you work with people and how you suggest you know when you talk you spoke about um you know addiction and Rehabilitation things like that have you Incorporated these sorts of things into your professional life as well yeah so I'm right now I'm not practicing so I'm strictly research and teaching that said yeah but when I give present and I have two books that are on substance abuse and addiction I don't specifically talk about like carnivore lifestyle but one thing as I'm moving forward um with like neuroscience and neurobiology is really looking into add sugar addiction and then even when I give my presentations I'll actually be in New Zealand in November presenting at an addiction conference there um and I'll be talking about like eliminating The Addictive components of sugar so health promotion so people that are in recovery for substance use um alcohol specifically but also other drugs of choice um again it's that dopamine and serotonin looking for that high that often if they're going through recovery at least when I was in the in the field working um with Clinic with patients they crave sugar and so there we go like there's like this cycle again and you really have to get to that's why I kind of talk a lot about like the selfworth and like really being invested in yourself because you have to identify like why am I turning now to sugar when all I was doing was drinking it's very very common and that's because the same thing that's in Sugar those brain um neurotransmitters are being activated right so when you take alcohol out of that now all of a sudden oh let me get some Pepsi let me get because I need the high because my brain is used to that so you have to again carnivore is like ideal for people that are in addiction and Recovery I try to like put it out there but again I'm not I'm not practicing um but I def promote it and at least integrate like the idea of recovery needs to have a component of nutrition and exercise like hands down that'll never I mean I'll never take that away I think that is like a key component for um relapse prevention I've just seen so many people relapse um that but those that do look at a very holistic approach and like what am I eating and what am I working out and again kind of coming back to the brain and what that looks like and what what areas of the brain are being affected um so so important and as you know sugar does the same thing it does the same thing as crack cocaine it it's addictive and and people can and they don't want to go through that withdrawal so yeah yeah definitely yeah I was I was speaking to um uh you know Professor Chris Palmer and about this and he was he was saying too that there were there were even studies with ketogenic diets with um people withdrawing from alcohol in the hospital setting where they were you know having to use Bodines to keep them out of DTS and they had two groups so it was randomized control trial and they had um the ketogenic group subjectively reported feeling less Cravings you know scale however they they did it so they felt less Cravings throughout the experience but they also objectively needed less benzodiazapines to keep them out of the DT so there was there was an objective uh Improvement as well from that that dietary changes which I thought was quite interesting yeah yeah well and I think there's I mean I was just in an a conference in Texas for like opioid um pandem or you know epidemic and what that looks like and so there was some conversations from other clinici that thinking about the health lifestyle and what that looks like and you know being addicted to painkillers and opioids and again it always kind of comes back to everything comes back to the brain so when you think about a carnivore lifestyle that is eliminating a lot of those other toxic um chemicals that you're putting in your body your brain is just going to function better right it's not if it's not getting what it needs it's not going to be thinking the same right like it's just that's and people don't and this is stuff that we can do without medicine right like sometimes medicine is need you know necessary like I'm all for it on certain levels um but I do think there's so much more that people could take responsibility and accountability for if they change some of their lifestyle habits including their nutrition um and I I don't know I don't think everything is obviously nutrition you have to look at all the different psychos social factors um but I I I think it's a huge component to it especially in addiction yeah definitely yeah that's great well Michelle thank you so much that was absolutely excellent absolutely uh love that so thank you so much for coming on um is there um do you have a a website or social media or anywhere that people can find you and and more of your work or and your books too yeah I have yeah so I'm on Instagram um that would probably be the easiest way to find me should I just tell you or put it in the chat what do you think sure well you tell tell um every I'll put it in the description as well yeah yeah so if you just go to Michelle mm um on Instagram you can find me there it says Professor um I'm open I love talking about this my books are on there as well so if you're interested in you know getting the book or just like asking about it you can look on there um I also give you my email if you're interested in emailing me um it is mmm ahr 53@gmail.com so you can email me message me on Instagram but I love talking about this um yeah and thank you for doing what you do I think it's amazing and I'm I'm glad we had the time to talk thanks for having me well you're very welcome it was absolute pleasure I'll put all that in the description and so people can uh look there to uh get in touch with you and find out more so thank you so much it's been an absolute pleasure awesome thank you have a great day you too hey guys thank you very much for taking the time out to listen to what I had to say if you like it then please like And subscribe to my YouTube channel on podcast and if you're on YouTube then please hit that little bell and subscribe and that'll let you know anytime I have a new video out which should be every week if not more and if you can share this with your friends that would help me get the word out and let me know that you like what I'm doing thanks again guys