Putting Anorexia Into Remission with a Carnivore Diet! | Kelsey Buchalter

[Music] anorexia specifically has the highest mortality rates of any psychiatric illness although seemingly efficacious for some the standard of treatment is failing a lot of people all the people that I met alongside me in treatment centers I mean I still see them struggling to this day trying to find this quote unquote food freedom and trying to find this like moderation of being able to just eat quote unquote anything and have no fear food welcome to the plant-free MD podcast with Dr Anthony chaffy where we discuss diet and nutrition and how this affects health and chronic disease and show you how you can use this to optimize your health and happiness both mentally and physically hello everyone and welcome to another edition of the plant-free MD podcast I'm your host Dr Anthony chaffy and today I have a very special guest um Miss Kelsey Balter I hope I'm pronouncing that right um who is joining us today Kelsey thank you so much for coming on thank you so much it's an honor to be here um so for people who haven't come across you can you tell us a bit about you and what you do sure so I am a nutrition Network practitioner so a metabolic health coach I am the host of the human theater podcast I'm a tedex speaker singer songwriter and actor and really I well I've been carnivore for six years it's saved my life after um struggling with severe anorexia bulimia and anxiety and I have not been able to basically shut up about it and all things mental physical and spiritual health optimization and just lifestyle interventions in the treatment and prevention of chronic disease so that's a little bit of me in a nutshell and we can dive as deep as you would like well that's great and um and fantastic it's nice you're sort of an early adopter of the carnivore dies for of six years is uh is is good you know that those were of the early days of of the wave that sort of started uh grow yeah yeah quite literally I mean I was gosh before porcino even thought of adding in Fruit I mean I even like he like would reply to my messages on Instagram and like um I was thinking about it today like before yeah Judy before nutrition with Judy even started a podcast I was like um in steak and butter G's like first cohort that she ever started before she like absolutely blew up it's been like amazing to watch the whole Space grow it's unbelievable yeah nice so how did you uh come across it yourself I somehow stumbled into it um I was always very familiar with um Prof Tim noes and his work I am I live in Cape Town in fact not too far away from where he lives and um the reason for that was my dad is an optometrist and so he in his practice he sees a lot of diabetic patients and in the early days of the Banting diet I was quite aware about it aware of it through my dad um and in the like middle of 2018 I was just in such a bad State I'd been in and out of hospital I was on the verge of being admitted again and I really didn't want to and um with that in mind I had a friend who um I knew that she was at least familiar with low Cobb and she had fibromyalgia and she said to me she went to this specific health coach it was just a health coach um and apparently that health coach at least knew low cop so that was like already a green flag for me and um I just went to her in the depth of my Despair and she basically just said to me for the next 10 days you're going to just eat red meat and eggs and salt and water and yeah I basically haven't not done that since like just that first meal was enough to wake me up and my brain lit up again and I've quite literally not been able to look back so that's how I've stumbled into carnivore yeah well that's great and and it's great that you're such an advocate for it now you know trying to pass on the the benefits that you've seen in yourself and in your your clients hopefully too um what as to that what were some of the major differences you saw once you switched your diet over to carnivore gosh so many well I mean of course in and of itself I was so malnourished I think at that point I was like 20 something kilogram so I think any food would have helped me um but yeah I just think the meat and the fat I just felt it in my brain I mean a lot of people speak about this keto Clarity and this like Den type of state and I just felt alive that's the only way that I can really describe it I just felt so alive and I had never been that alive in my life um and I obviously just had so much energy and I think in my case I had always been I mean growing up in South Africa meat is huge here the meat is so good here so I had always naturally loved meat but i' often restricted myself in fact at one point I was even a vegan of course but um I think I was it was kind of like I suppose ideal in my case and that those are all the foods that I naturally loved and like this health coach kind of gave me permission to go and eat them and yeah I just think also the quality of my thoughts like mediately just I could feel like i' had been and this is probably why and this is actually why I am so outspoken is cuz I was in the standard of care for like 20 plus years and I was failed time and time and time again and not one specialist physician that I ever went to and I went to them all I went to endocrinologists and neurologists I even had like MRIs done of my brain to see if there's something wrong with me like me mechanistically um and not one ever asked me Kelsey what what are you eating um so and I also tried all the medications Under the Sun but yeah I going back to the quality of my thoughts changing is that after I started eating carnivore I was then able to apply all the years of therapy that I had been in cuz I was going sometimes twice a week to therapy and like again nothing just left feeling hopeless and broken each and every freaking time so yeah that's that's why I'm such a huge advocate for this is I kind of reverse engineering my mental health and um I know Dr Daniel aan speaks a lot about this but he has an amazing analogy that I use all the time and if you liken um the human body to the hardware of a computer and the human psychology to the software of a computer how can you expect the hardware I mean sorry the software to be functioning optimally if the hardware is beaten and battered so yeah yeah yeah it's a very good very good analogy and of course it's true you know if if your brain isn't functioning properly you're neurons can't talk to each other properly they're not sending off signals in an appropriate way they're coming off a bit too late or lasting lingering a bit too long you're going to get inappropriate signals and you're going to get you know damage and and frost wires and and uh that manifest as us feeling rotten and so yeah it does it makes perfect sense and I'm glad that you got so much benefit out of that and still are yeah yeah and I think of course there's an element of gut health as well I had major gut issues my whole life so I mean the gut and the brain are basically like one thing so that also definitely helped um for sure yeah it's interesting isn't it you know that that was something that was pointed out by a friend of mine gastron neurologist pran yogan um who said that you know sometimes we will call the gut our second brain and he was saying actually technically it's our first brain because that Evolved first that developed first and then actually our you know central nervous system actually was an offshoot of that so that's actually our first brain um certainly uh a has a lot of neurons anyway and gangling and things like that that uh you know have a lot to do with how our body functions and how our brain functions as well because there's a lot of communication between our our gut brain and our in our Central brain so it's yeah it's it's um it's not something you can separate you know it's h it's funny but it actually turns out that the brain is part of the body and so if you're unhealthy and your body is getting damaged by you know these outside factors that affects your brain as well and and we sort of have separated those two that psychology and Psychiatry are separate from you know Physical Medicine and of course you can't separate the two this is this is a very important organ and when there that gets dysfunctional our thoughts get dysfunctional as well and so that's just the expression of damage to that organ is Mak sense when you think about it yeah 100% I mean I I also don't want to refute that there are you know things as situational depression and anxiety like that's you know understand like valid you know experiences that can shape and I definitely have had you know traumas that could definitely quote unquote have contributed and they definitely did but in my case 100% I cuz I mean all I've ever known my whole life up until carnivore really was just severe anxiety and like it kind of was like there was no outward reason for me to be feeling like the way that I was um and in that regard like that's where I just keep going back to like with me 100% there was just you know neuroinflammation and a whole lot of gut inflammation and you know fixing the biology fixing my mitochondria was kind of the key to at least stabilize me and then I could apply you know all the Deep mindsets like psychological work that is know is an investment that everyone I think should should take so yeah that's kind of where I also am very outspoken because I think for a lot of people I mean everyone's inflamed who isn't inflamed and it cost it manifests in our own bioindividual way but you know if if we can in the standard of treatment Implement something like just like your diet you know to stabilize someone especially in such an acute psychiatric like State I mean anorexia specifically has the highest mortality rates of any psychiatric illness and Al yeah although seemingly efficacious for some the standard of treatment is not is failing a lot of people and you know with all the people that I met alongside me in treatment centers I mean I still see them struggling to this day trying to find this quote unquote food freedom and trying to find this like moderation of being able to just eat quote unquote anything and have no fear food but it's yeah anyway going off on this on a tangent but yeah angry no but it's it's very it's very important you know and and obviously there has to be a reason why people are saying no I don't want to eat that and I'd rather just not eat anything than eat that and and then being able to get around that or just not have it be an issue by going carnivore because I I've heard time and time again that people that have suffered from anorexia and bulimia have uh been able to recover on a carnivore diet so you know it's not it's not that people are like oh I don't want to eat it's just that I don't want to eat that and I'm being told why I think is that they're being told meat's bad Fat's bad all these things that their body is telling them saying hey this is really important you need to eat this you can't eat that that's going to make you fat that's going to make you sick and you're like okay well I can't eat that and then this other stuff tastes like hot garbage and makes me feel bad and so I don't want to eat that so you just don't eat and um or you you binge on something that you're not supposed to have and then you feel horrible and guilty about it and and you purge and then when I think that when people understand that actually meat's really good for you you can eat until you're satisfied you don't have to starve yourself you don't have to overeat you don't have to purge afterwards you can just be healthy that people go oh thank God finally and I think it's the same sort of mindset like you're trying to find something that's you know it's good for you and works for you it's just you're strugging you're being told a lot of weird information that doesn't make sense to you naturally and you end up having disordered eating but you know I think we're all we all suffer from disordered eating I think even the recommendations of hey look you can just eat anything let's just eat everything I think that's a bit disordered too I don't think that's healthy you know and it's it's sort of giving up you know one way of disordered eating for another and and albeit probably a healthier you know lesser of two evils but I don't I don't think it's as good as you I don't think it's optimal and and I think that that's why people like yourself have figured out okay I can eat a corn War diet and hey I can do this I enjoy it I like it I feel good you know I don't I don't need to resort to those those ways of eating uh before but I don't know I'd love to hear your thoughts on that yeah well I think just the one big thing with eating disorder in the standard of care and just conventional eating disorder recovery is that they you know they kind of Base your recovery on your ability to moderate at foods and all foods including processed foods and junk Foods I mean I was forced to eat chocolate bar after chocolate bar after like sandwich after pasta like each and every day I even had to have freaking soy milk every night like with like almonds and a whole chocolate bot right before bed and that was my sixth freaking meal of the day that's not even food like it's not food it's not food but for an eating disorder If you deny that or if you don't want to eat that or if you want to eat healthy it's considered an eating disorder which I I understand I really do I do see the validity in both camps and this is where I say like I do speak about this with caution and sensitivity because I do understand psychologically as well you know there is a pathological if you can call it that or just from the eating disorder perspective there is a fear of those Foods I don't want to be eating junk foods like they're I know that they're not good for me but at the same time I don't want to gas light myself and I don't think that I am any less just because I have an eating disorder or anyone else is an eating disorder specifically anorexia I don't think we are any less um like in need of healthy food in fact we probably needed more um so yeah I mean I yeah and like if if you zoom out completely in I mean again I think the carnival diet was my first red pull into everything and now everything's like I've taken all the red pulls and I can't unsee it now but like I now look at processed food and junk food as like it's another drug just like alcohol and whatever other drug out there I know that there are many but um I like that to me now is actually food freedom because I don't even see it as food but I mean right in the beginning of carnivore I was met with a lot of like Kelsey is this just like this is just another eating disorder like I even had to go meet up with Professor oses to ask him is in my situation eating a carnival diet like okay and he's like yes and I'm like really cuz I can pretty much eat a whole chicken in one day and he goes yes like yes that's great so then like I had that as ammunition to like go to my parents and be like okay well even Prof said that I can eat a carnival diet so yeah but I I mean still sometimes people think that it's just another eating disorder and I do get what they're saying I do I do get what they're saying but I'm at a point now where I just like I'm seeing it as if I had type two diabetes like I'm going to eat this way this is my medicine because this this puts all of my symptoms into remission every time that I've tried to moderate and add something back in it's just led to a disaster and a flare up of so many symptoms and of course one can argue oh well is that not just the eating disorder like you should be okay if you have something else and I'm like yes but also no like it's kind of it is it is a there's like a little bit of a murky area and this is where Eating Disorders are a little bit more complicated than something like alcohol like alcoholism or drug addiction where you can just like throw away the alcohol um you can't really throw away your body and you can't really not be in your body and you do kind of have to eat so there is it can get a little bit murky but yeah yeah well you know I mean but you know in the name you know eating disorder something disordered so this is something that is is presumably causing ill health because if it's something they're perfectly healthy everyone people eat in different ways and you know if you're healthy and things are going fine people don't consider it an eating disorder and so what an eating disorder you know really should only be constrained to are patterns of eating that cause harm to the individual and so if you're and and then there's you know the other term orthorexia where you're saying there just obsessed with being healthy and oh my God not g okay but where's the harm in actually caring about your usually be called Health nuts you know uh or people who gave a about their life you know things like that and so you can you can you call someone orthorexic probably call me that but it doesn't make any sense in the context because you know I just I just don't want to eat poison like why is that a bad why is that disordered eating that I don't want to eat something that directly harms my B oh it's not that bad well one cigarette's not that bad either so I guess you should smoke one cigarette a day or else or else you're orthorexic or else you're a freak and you you you're just afraid of the cigarette yeah I am because it's poison and I don't want to eat I don't want to smoke it I don't want to drink it I don't want to eat it and you know that's you know is a is a koala orthorexic do they have an e eating disorder because they they only eat eucalyptus I mean my goodness you know we should get them some counseling same with lions what the hell are they doing they're just eat meat all the time what a monster it's it's it's just simple biology animals are supposed to eat a specific diet and when you recognize that nutrition becomes very easy and straightforward and if you are healthy and you're reversing health issues and if you you know go back to eating what's considered a balanced diet which I consider disordered eating because it's an unhealthy diet then you know you're you're considered weird but the thing is is that people are reversing their health issues their mental health issues their physical health issues their autoimmune issues their diabetes why is it considered uh better from a psychological point of view to eat things that cause disease rather than not eating those things and just eating things that are healthy for you and being healthy because that's what it comes down to does your diet make you healthy or not if it makes you healthy you don't have an eating disorder I'm sorry but you or maybe you know in the early but but continue on for end you're doing this for years and years and years and years and years you know start off on anything you know you can be healthy at the beginning but you know if you if you're doing this for 20 years if you do this for a lifetime is it going to cause disease is it going to cause harm if the answer know that it's not a disordered eating it is just just food it's just nutrition and that's the whole point of eating is just getting nutrition not for the enjoyment of it not to say that you can and just show that you can you know have willpower and things like that that's not what food is food is nutrition and uh and we we have a a very strange relationship with food now that I think like you say is is more like a drug that we have we we eat for the enjoyment of it the pleasure of it as opposed for the nourishment of it alone which is what it's for and when you do that you're eating things that can cause harm some things we know cause harm and yet we eat it anyway because we enjoy the experience of it oh it's okay if you just have a little bit okay it's okay if you just smoke a few cigarettes and just have a few drinks too but it's not as good as if you didn't have any of it and so we're treating food as as we do drugs and alcohol and cigarettes which is well it's not that big of a deal and oh it's just a special occasion and I'm just going to do it because I enjoy it and we're doing that with you know bread and pasta and all these other sorts of you know treats and candies and and cookies and things like that so it's I think it's the wrong approach to take with food and nutrition especially and um I don't think that's disordered to to get out of that whole debacle and just say I'm just going to put nutrients in my body and and then live my life life and and you know take my entertainment with my life as opposed to with my food yeah 100% well I just keep going back to the proof is in the pudding um you know if anyone has questioned me I I don't think they question me now like I think pretty people know my story who know me I suppose and they can see that I'm a completely different person and I'm like thriving um so I am I am proud and I will be always a huge advocate of something like the diet you change because yeah quite literally saved my life and gave it gave me more of a life so yeah very grateful oh that's really good yeah and then and then do you um and you work with people as well with their nutrition do you work with who do you normally work with is it short of everybody or you have a specific demographic that you like to work with hey everyone really happy to announce a new sponsor for the show and for everybody down in Australia Stockman Stakes who are delivering highquality grass-fed and finished pasture raised beef and other meats flash frozen and vacuum sealed tood door something that I've been enjoying a lot of myself recently as well they also have a great range of specialty items such as high fat keto mints and carnivore beef and organs mints with liver kidneys and beef heart as well so use code chaffy today for free order of beef mints or another specialty gift along with your order at Stockman steaks.com and I'll see you over there thanks guys I I don't I really you know all humans are humans um so I don't I me of I can very much have a niche with eating disorders and females and males um but yeah at this at this point I don't turn away anyone so I'll I'll work with anyone and everyone um and yeah I mean I would be remiss you know another big part of my story of recovery that I think is very important because of course nutrition is foundational for all of us cuz our cells are literally made up of what we consume and assimilate and Digest but another big part of my story was the meaning and purpose part and you know soon before I actually found carnivore I had a I stumbled my way into another crazy experience and I happened to land an audition for studying musical theater and I as a young kid like music had always played a very very big part of my life um and you know things really got bad after school um and I started studying a few things and with the anorexia I just couldn't ever finish a degree because I just was always back in a hospital um but uh yeah I I got this audition and I did not expect to get in I was really in a very dire State physically as well but I actually landed up getting accepted into this musical theater Academy and I got accepted and then soon after that is when I went to the health coach and she put me on the Carnival diet but why I did want to bring this up it's kind of because it does parallel but each and every day of going to that like going to college firstly I mean even just for that audition alone I didn't even care if I didn't get um accepted because those few days that I had to prepare for the audition cuz I only found out about it like 3 days before the audition um and I had been out of it for many years but it I had woken up with the sense of purpose and something to look forward to and something that my monkey mind all this like black wolf if I can press you know sort of put a character to the eating disorder the black wolf it was distracted I had something to work towards and I mean again I was just so grateful that the day of the audition and those few days leading up to it like I was just distracted because my life before that was just so myopic and so focused on Moment by moment like I was either just crying with hysteria and like when you're So like um severely underweight like I didn't even have tears I was just like cry crying but like I didn't even know why I was just crying and then like at any given point I mean I'm I'm laughing about it now but at any given point I mean I used to have the longest curly hair plumps of hair would fall out of my like it was just it was so like I I used to go to bed wishing I would never wake up like it was just tormenting to like be inside of my head and so you know against that backdrop just having those few days of something to do and prepare towards was like already life-changing and I definitely felt a glimpse of what life should actually feel like um and yeah so I went to the audition and I actually ended up getting accepted and every day since starting you know I graduated in 2022 um and every like it was just every day was such a a growth state for me um because I was like put in that place that was clearly authentic to me and what I like what my passion and my you know some like strengths and skill sets were it was kind of like Kelsey play time and that was very therapeutic for me as well so that up and above you know the biological piece that was fixed with the carnival diet was two like those are two very big pieces of the puzzle um because you know I kind of describe it like the opposite of addiction and they do like an eating disorders to addiction the opposite of addiction is meaning and purpose because the minute that you have something to work towards like you're not being pulled back by the throws of the eating disorder or whatever their addiction is so that is another big part of my story and what I'm also very outspoken about and what I do help hopefully people find like their meaning and purpose in their life yeah well that that's a very good point too and and sometimes certainly with addiction as well you know I um I've I've known a lot of people that they just sort of haven't had much Direction in their life and and they've um they easier for them to go down that that route and it was it was easier it was easier to justify using substances to sort of make them happy and bring them up because they their their life wasn't really going the way they wanted it to and they really have something to look forward to and work towards and so you know partying and doing drugs and alcohol became what they looked forward to and whereas you know I enjoyed drinking as a teenager I you know I I I started drinking at an early age I was like 14 when I started drinking uh just with my friends you know at uh but it was very rare it was that would happen like you know a couple times over the summer or something like that couple times during the year it wasn't like a big thing and um and you know my biggest thing was like when I played sports like I wouldn't wouldn't do any of that and um you know I had friends that smoked and so you know you sneak out of school and have a cigarette or something like that you know have couple of week or something uh but not during Athletics I was like I never I never did that during during Sports and even when I had injuries and I would be put on you know heavy medications like Badin or or you know peret which is oxycodone uh for like an injury or surgery or something like that uh it would be like wow that's amazing like normally my body's like racked with pain because they just you know playing contact Sports since I was a kid and you just you just don't even realize you just live with the pain and all of a sudden you get these painkillers to get rid of you know your injury and say your shoulder or whatever and then all of a sudden all the rest of the pain that you didn't even realize you had because you just been living with it goes away oh my God that's really nice that's really nice and you just really enjoyed that and then but even as much as I enjoyed that feeling and and and wanted that you know I felt a bit slow and sluggish and junky I couldn't work out I couldn't train and I was like and my brain didn't work and I was like this is not going to work because I need my brain and I'm you know I'm studying I'm doing my work I can't I can't have my brain foggy and I want to out I want to go to the gym I want to play rugby and so I had that full away from that even though like works it was a lot of fun you know and it was nice not being pain all the time I would much rather be active in school and rugby and sports than than do that and so that was always my pullback and that's saw friends of mine that didn't quite have that poll and they got more and more sucked into it unfortunately and so that's a good that's very good point I didn't uh didn't even think about that for for eating disorders that makes a lot of sense yeah no I think it's it's a really big piece of all of our puzzles I think we all deserve you know even if it's just a little part-time hobby or a side hustle I think you know our our Birthright is Optimal Health and one of the tenants of health is definitely meaning and purpose so yeah it definitely makes an makes a complete difference yeah definely so have you have you worked with other other people with eating disorders and have have they had success with carnivore as well I haven't specifically worked with people with eating disorders and put them on Carnivore um I've sort of to be honest like I as much as like I'm known for like eating disorder I haven't actually had many eating disordered patients and I also know that it is kind of like it has been up until very recently you know I suppose controversial um I know Judy has spoken about you know in her experience she wasn't allowed to like you could be vegan in in a treatment center but you can't necessarily be like low carb um so yeah but I think the more that I'm also growing my name because I've only just finished my nnp certification very recently um before that I was just a nutrition adviser and health coach um straight after I finished studying musical theater so I'm you know really I've just been working a lot like with a more like diabetic sort of you know the standard sort of metabolic sort of things um but I definitely would you know if someone did have to come to me you know in with a similar background I would very much espouse a carnivore diet for sure or at least low carb I mean I do I'm I'm not like a zealot or or dogmatic person at all I I would never and especially with my background with eating disorders I am very sensitive of food discussion um so even even though it is my personal bias to be carnivore if you know sometimes it may just be needing to be like a a slower transition for someone um I would never tell them that a whole food anything is bad for you because as long as it's not processed you know I'm just kind of in the camp of Camp Whole Foods but of course my bias is is carnivore um and I do believe that it is our species appropriate diet just I'm sure you're familiar with Mickey bendor and his work yeah I mean he was one of the he did one of the courses on nutrition Network that I had to do and his lectures just were like it blew my mind yeah yeah very good yeah and yeah I I think I think Mickey bendor is fantastic and you know it's not that it's not that he's saying anything completely revolutionary it's just he's just putting hard numbers to things and just showing hey actually there's really hard evidence to this but you know I was told as a kid from my teachers that humans are apex predators have been apex predators for milons of years I mean that's what all the evidence shows you know we have all these bone piles around you know human settlements just animal bones everywhere with these butcher marks and you know stone tools have been cut into you know where they're cleaving off meat there's very specific patterns to when you're you're butchering meat off of a bone and and we see that you know going back millions of years and then we have have ample evidence of hunting doing you know Buffalo drops with the Native Americans going back Millennia even actually over a million years with mammoths there's evidence of Mammoth drops of scaring a herd of mammoths over a cliff so that they crash and burn and then get harvested at the bottom so this isn't this isn't like um revolutionary and and uh I had uh actually just saw this guy Chris from plant Chompers actually tried to make this argument said there's a lot of straw man arguments unfortunately I think he's a bit disingenuous even though he tries to come across as as very sincere uh it's it's quite clear that he's very disingenuous and he's and he's trying to mislead people intentionally because he's said a lot of things about me and intentionally got things wrong I got a hold of my CV for example and started talking about things as oh I don't know what this is and like the next page down it talks about all these things saying oh you know it's just like you have you have the resume so you know that that's not true you know that that's intentionally misleading so and he said that my only evidence my only argument was for people being in carnivores was was Mickey bendor work and um and he said well this guy's a fringe something he was really a businessman and oh well he's a businessman with a PhD who did his thesis on this and that's more than you can say Chris and um and then he was showing tapes of other other P anthropologists saying oh yeah you know 78 millon million years ago humans are eating predominantly plants and they know small amounts of meat and this and the other and it's just and and intentionally omitting the fact that those same pale anthropologists say that we were then eating meat and switched to carnivorism about two three million years ago so you know it's um it it is the common uh common theme that you know humans have been carnivores for millions of years apex predators by definition are Carnival Wars not been plant-based 78 million years ago sure but that's not what we're talking about we're talking about the last two three million years and right now and uh there's no argument I mean this is this is just a definition in terms you can look up in um the the Cambridge Dictionary Oxford dictionary like that humans are apex predators I even found uh where they you know uh in a definition of apex predator from Cambridge University uh Cambridge University impress that they used uh humans as an example humans as apex predators can still sometimes be killed in in the Wild by other apex predators such as you know bears and lions and things like that it's just like you know it's a simple definition in terms you know you you hunt other animals and you eat them and we do that you know in fact we're we're now termed super Predators we're the most successful predators that have ever existed we've been able to hunt every single animal on the land air and seas and there isn't anything I mean and we do this by the trillions I mean that's the whole argument from vegans like oh my God this is this this massive um hit on on animal life and it's like what does that mean though that that means we're apex predators I that's that's the definition and so um I I really love uh Mickey uh coming out and saying these things because he's just he com just the right time of just you know people saying no no we're when I was growing up people were saying oh you shouldn't eat meat because it makes you fat it causes heart disease this that and the other but no one ever said that well but and we evolved as herb wordss you know and that that's the kind of animal that we are they they never tried to say yeah we've been eating meat but obviously people were dying of heart attacks in their 30s and we just didn't know about it uh which is not true which is definitely not true we actually have a lot of evidence to show that is that is not true and um and it's only been very recently that people have and you know then said you know ethically you know if you're going to gain weight you're going to gain fat and um you know it's not you know a nice thing to do to eat animals and you know that's that's certainly something certainly isn't nice it would be nice if we didn't have to do that but we do and but no one was questioning the fact that humans have evolved as Carnivor in fact the major thing was is we became humans because our ancestors went carnivore and that's what drove our Evolution to where we are today and now in the last few years they're trying to say no no we're herbivores no no actually we're heror because we don't have big fangs you know like a gorilla apex predator gorillas you know and they're big fangs we don't have those so you know or um or a duck you know a duck is a is a carniv Bo so obviously you know we don't have big sharp fangs like a duck so obviously we're not we're not carnivores and uh it's very strange and so uh Mickey bendor came around at a good time to really just come on no no no no this is really what the evidence shows and in fact there's a lot more of it and here it is so really really big fan of his yeah I mean in his lecture he kind of said that humans are actually just obligate carnivores and adaptive omnivores um in times that we needed to and I think I also just go back to basic like physiology and biology like humans in comparison to our primates like we have much longer small intestines and they house our digestive enzymes and all the things that need that needs like that is needed to break down protein um and you know we have a much shorter large colon and and you know in the large colon that's where all the you know microbes are that you know kind of just put take cellulose and turn it into saturated fat anyway so um that is like one fact and then he also spoke a lot about Al Al pH which is you know even more acidic I think I'm getting may be getting wrong um I can't actually remember but yeah our pH is exactly of what carnivals are we share the same pH and then also our um how we breastfeed our young in the wild is very very similar to how carnivores in the wild do like breastfeeding and then he even had like a whole um PowerPoint slide on just the how our um adapost tissues are like the composition of them and you know just the size of them is very exactly similar to a carnivore so you kind of like in the lecture just like went through all of these things like from the intestines to the pH to the breastfeeding to like so many different things and like basically show that we are obligate carnivores and adaptive omnivores yeah oh that's great and yeah I I totally agree with that you know because it's um yeah you know obviously depends on your definition of of these terms but you know we we do have nutrients that we have to have that we can only get from meat and don't exist in plants or fungus and there's nothing in plants or fungus that we have to have that we can't get from meat and so that means we are obligated to eat meat so you can get absolutely everything from eating meat you don't have to go anywhere else and it's perfect right then and so you can just do that and there are things in plants that do cause harm but we can survive on them and we can survive for a while usually in combination with meat and so you know that that uh is I think is a much better definition of being adaptive or um vores and but obligate carnivores because we are we and cats too you know cats can are oate carnivores but they can get up to 60% of their calories from carbohydrates and yet they they don't benefit from doing that though except in a survival point of view if they're dying and they don't have anything else to eat yeah that's then that's a survival benefit and that's certainly a survival benefit in us and so that has definitely helped us through some lean times but that doesn't mean it's optimal and I think that that's the only only sensible way of defining what's what an animal is is what is optimal for them not just what they can do but what is optimal for them to do that makes sense 100% 100% yeah yeah so I was going to ask too um I haven't actually seen your tedex talk what was that what was that about sure so that was um very interesting I kind of somehow stumbled into realiz ing that um just in line with I suppose Stress Management and anxiety the main nerve responsible for voice production is the Vegas nerve and so my tedex talk was entitled it's it's going to be released soon um I'll let you know when it's out but it's um knowing thy voice the ultimate biohack so I kind of Drew on the parallels of literally using your voice to help stimulate the Vagas nerve and put you into a Paras sympotic state but then also figuratively knowing yourself like you know turning within and how that is such a powerful tool as well to kind of like hack your health so it was kind of just speaking about um the power of vagal nerve stimulation um and then I also with my background with musical theater you know singing and stuff and how that was such a Monumental part of my recovery and the more that I strengthened physiologically the more my voice strengthened um and vice versa actually at the same time so yeah it was about that um tedex is interesting because it is well the Ted organization is a is very much vegan at the moment so I know that I know Michaela Peterson had a little bit of controversy with her um tedex presentation as well but yeah my my tedex talk was about the Vegas nerve and the voice yeah well very good that's fun that's nice that you got to do that that's uh it's really interesting I'll try to uh get that link for that put it in the description as well for people that that want to see that yeah I hope it's out by the time this a otherwise I'll hasn't been put out hasn't yeah it's still in post production um but yeah I'll I'll I'll let everyone know when it's out yeah well when when it does let me know and I'll put the link in the destion for this yeah very awesome awesome and and then um as far as your podcast is concerned what do you what do you uh normally talk about on your podcast is it carnivore everything there has been carnivore things hopefully I'll get you on there I've had the meat Mafia I've had um Brian Sanders um I'm blanking on all the other people but I've had many guests oh Sean Sakowski I've had recently I'm gonna have Prof I've had Jane Balin had a whole lot of people but um yeah I've definitely it's all things mental physical and spiritual health optimization so I've kind of try tick all the tenants of Health um and get a whole lot of people from diverse spaces I mean also had like a lot of people in the music industry and creativity space so it's been it's been fun it's kind of like the house I kind of call myself a very multi-passionate person I just have so many passions and interests and I can't choose one so it's like my place where I get to I suppose Express Express all of it nice um by well I've had um uh a number of uh artists and musicians actually reach out to me at at one point or another about um uh doing carnivore and interested in it and sort of like you know help help them with that and uh it was it was actually kind of cool I don't know if you you guys know about this um this group I don't know if they made it to South Africa but um back in the you know some of the 90s 2000s there was a like a hip-hop rap group in America called mob deep and um I I'd listen to him as as a teenager and they were just badass and then you know one of the guys from that guy named havoc and they have some like absolutely Classics in in the hip-hop sort of genre and all of a sudden I noticed he was following I'm like I was like like messaging all my like you know friends from high school I was like dude like Havoc from Mob deep just started following me like the hell is that he's like what really and um and it turns out he's doing cornivore and really likes it and is doing really well with it and and a lot of other people too so it's it's kind of fun that um this is sort of infiltrating those circles as well and so cool yeah so cool it's is cool as well just just that even people even hearing about this stuff and and hearing about you know carnivore and and um watching my movies you know you get you get people that um actually met met uh a guy yesterday really nice guy he was at um a rugby game here in Perth that my uh my girlfriend's son was playing at and so we were watching the game and he came up to me and was talking to me and said hey you know I recognize you from your from your videos and things like that and it's just it's still just very surreal when people recognize me and and uh and say like wow really really enjoy the cornivore it's really helping me and all that sort of stuff which is you know the whole the whole point in doing it but it's it's it's just I don't know it's still a bit um yeah just surreal that people know who the hell I am and care what I have to say but it's it's not nice to see more and more people coming to this and you know just getting getting benefits and just being healthy like you said you know our Birthright is that of Health you know we should be healthy and uh no species of animal plant or anything else is unhealthy as a species no other species makes just tons of toxins in their own body that just just kill themselves constantly you know that doesn't make I mean there are there are some some weird things out there in nature that you know sometimes don't make sense but um there's there's like a typee of pig for instance that has like these tus that sort of grow out of its snout and just keep growing and growing and growing and then eventually like Pierce its own forehead and kill it that's a bit odd but um you know those are those are but otherwise they're very healthy they're not just like metabolically sick with diabetes and you know having heart attacks and strokes and you know getting you know rheumatoid arthritis you know limping around the serengetti and things like that just that that that doesn't happen but uh we we seem to have accepted that as normal in humans and that doesn't make any sense from a biological point of view from an EV evolutionary biology point of view especially just that doesn't make sense we're descended from the winners we're descended from the survivors we're descended from the people who made it and were healthy enough to make it where there was a lot of people died and weren't able to reproduce died in infancy or before they could have kids um or shortly thereafter and then their whole families died and got wiped out in a plague or a war or something we're all descended from the Survivors by definition and so the idea that we're all just sick as a species and just the human race is a sickly damaged disease and dysfunctional species of animal makes no sense and so we should be healthy and we should be able to be healthy without modern medicine and a bunch of pills and treatments to get us there we should just be healthy and if there's an accident or an urgency or trauma we we should have medicine and and medical Technologies available to help us but otherwise we should just be able to just live our lives and be healthy and so I think it's just you know that that eating a normal diet for humans is uh is the best way to get there at least 95% of it it's such a huge part plus obviously there's other things that that are important but this is one of the biggest ones that we can change so easy easily and um like it's it's not always it's not always easy to do but it is simple it's very simple and straight forward you just make this change these problems go away I I see it in my patients all the time I mean I've have hundreds and hundreds of patients that I've put on a carnivore diet directly personally and I've seen thousands and thousands and thousands of other tens hundreds of thousands and and like you you know a lot of them had been vegan and plant-based and tried all these different diets and uh they weren't healthy and they weren't working and you know the more they listen to the diet advice of eat less meat eat less fat eat less in general move more they you know just got worse and worse and I mean and and what is what is anorexia it it besides the the classic advice which is eat less move more I was like well anorexics really did that and they took that to the to the extreme it's like okay I'm not going to eat anything at all I'm going to exercise all the time okay well that's bad advice isn't it and so you know if if something were good advice you should be able to extend that out and um and at the extreme still be healthy like eating a cornivore diet you eat fatty meat until it stops tasting good you get the right ratio of fat one or two grams of fat to one gram of protein you eat as many times a day as you need to for your body and what's your body telling you and you get on with your life and you can do that when you're losing weight when you want to put on weight when you're older when you're younger when you have Auto immune issues when you have diabetes or you're just trying to maintain healthy life it's the same all the time and um and so you know it's uh it should just be a natural normal process and uh hopefully we can get more people back on board and and uh healthy again hey guys just want to take a second to thank our sponsor at carnivore bar I don't promote many products because honestly all you need to be healthy is to just eat meat for those times that you're out hiking road tripping or stuck at work and you want nutritious snack that is just meat fat and salt if you want it the carnivore bar is a great option so I like this product not because it's just pure meat but also because I want the carnivore Market to thrive as well and the more we support meat only products the more meat only products that will be available in the mainstream so if this sounds like something you'd like to get behind check it out using my discount code Anthony to get 10% off which also applies to subscriptions giving you 25% off total all right thanks guys yeah I'm hopeful I don't think people can carry on much longer just living like this I think more and more people are yeah and I mean I am so grateful for you as well and all the amazing work that you've been doing I really hope you get to go and Andrew huberman that' be cool that would be so cool well it' be amazing I I really yeah sorry go on no I was gonna say I was listening to one of your q&as and you were like oh my gosh did Andre like someone said that Andrew hubman had like and I was like I hope this is possible cuz I mean Chris Palmer on Andrew hubman was amazing like I was like that's amazing even Robert lustig um but yeah I I'm I'm vouching that I hope that you get on there that would be amazing it would be nice and um yeah I I'm I'm a big fan of Andrew uberman he did pop on to one of my Instagram lives and I sort of made a comment in there sort of you know voices interest about getting in touch and talking about the cornivore diet and I was like and now that was actually early on that was like two years ago so it was like sort of six months after I sort of started my channel and was really talking about this it was like one o'clock in the morning and I had just come off um shift and I've been operating until like I don't know 11 or 12 and I just came back and I was just like well I'm I'm I'm not going to have a chance to sort of do a live or something and I should probably just just do one and you know I was still sort of Wired from you know operating and working all day so I sort of did that as a wind down and I was I was so out of it and all a sudden people are like she like you Andrew huberman it's here pay oh what oh Jesus and uh and I was on like multiple different phones because you had to be on like Tik Tok you had to be on like one phone and I had I had my Us phone and then my Australian phone I was on Instagram and then I was like on YouTube with my computer so so annoying you can you can do that better now on the computer but um before it was just you had to have different devices going so I'm like looking around at all these different things I just didn't see like are you saying this you know and U so actually actually um he you know we got in touch and he was interested in starting the cornor diet and trying it for a month um we didn't end up being able to coordinate a time to talk on the phone um and so he uh had started a carnivore diet and he was going to do blood tests and you know do a little and of one self experiment um he got a couple weeks into it and his energy levels weren't that great he talked about this on um Joe Rogan and um and talked about how his energy levels weren't great in the gym and so otherwise he had sort of good responses but like he wasn't getting the big workouts that he wanted in the gym and that's something that he really enjoys doing and um and so we talked to Paul saladino uh and unfortunately got told to eat a whole bunch of fruit and honey he said it actually made him feel a lot worse and he felt a lot worse he just said look maybe this is just maybe just can this because it was uh it was hurting his workouts and and then adding in fruit and honey was just like I was a non-starter um really wish that he had got in touch with me I actually sent him a text and never heard back from him afterwards but I said hey this is this is why that could have happened and um you know there's obviously an adaptation phase that you have to go through you know Prof nox has studied that meticulously and you know for the sort of the you know the weekend warrior sort of athlete um uh you know you need sort of like six to eight weeks before you're going to start really feeling great and as like a high performance athlete it's going to be you know longer than that and potentially I found in myself that after about two weeks I really started feeling a lot better but um that's when I really started noticing it take it off but it got better and better and better and better and better as I went and I noticed that with a lot of athletes Ryan talbet who's a three-time All-American NCAA division one All-American in the de cathlon and he went carnivore halfway through his season and transition he said he felt you know a bit off for the first two weeks but it didn't actually hurt his performance and then after that he just took off and and became an All-American that year won the Big 10 competition in the cathlon and then you know was All-American two years after that and actually just missed out on going to the Olympics this year for the USA team he came in8th wow and yeah so it was fantastic right and um so I think you know that was probably what was going on was that there's just sort of a bit of an adaptation phase could bit other things you know when he was eating if he was eating before he worked out wasn't getting as much water not eating enough fat all these sorts of things that yeah and salt even can help salt absolutely yeah especially early on and so you know I was I was yeah I would it would have been fun to to talk to him about that and and get him on there and succeed with it been like oh my God yeah this is amazing and then and then have him very seriously look into it and maybe even you know bring some studies into his lab um the hell's going on uh that would have been that would have been great so um fingers crossed that um we can Peak his interest again yeah yeah I mean that's also something that I think a lot of people especially athletes or bodybuilders they you know it does take time for the body to adapt especially when most of your life you have been running off of glucose um it can take longer than a month you know um can take years for some people like a room wasn't built in a day so ah that is a Pity but yeah anecdotes end of one anecdotes can help I suppose well you know and that's the thing it can go One Direction or the other you know if his n of one was good then that could have brought him into you know One Direction yeah his n of one didn't go so well so he's just like well all right and even though there's a lot of other people I mean there was enough there there was enough there were enough people benefiting from this and pretty U results with it that it interested him as a professor of medicine at Stanford going like okay well maybe maybe I'll try it and see what it's like and um I would just yeah I I I really hope that um you know he could see this or something else and and get interested in it again and give it another try because I I I know that he he'll feel much better with it given time and eating proper amounts and you know if you just eat a big fatty meal during the day you're gonna be tired and lethargic during the day I I cannot work out if I've eaten a big steak I'm it's just not gonna happen like it's just like I'm on you know I'm on Siesta time like my body's just like yeah that's happen like you you've already it's like what are you doing like you've already gotten your kill you've already gotten meat like just relax like you don't be don't be you know an overachiever you know and um so I I work out on an empty stomach always and uh um when I when I don't do that I have terrible workouts and I don't I don't enjoy them and when I'm fasted when I'm just having eaten that day feel fantastic I don't want to leave the gym I just want to I just want to work out and just go crazy in there and um and then I eat a big meal after that and it's just it's just a perfect sort of combination for me and so yeah well you know fingers crossed you sort of get them around and get more studies out there and more data um I'm actually looking to to publish some case series from my own patient populations because they've just revers are not supposed to be reversible and um and so if we can get those published out there and and just show hey look this is this is what's happening on the ground with clinicians treating patients and um and uh you know the these are the results we're getting you know and and you know it it when you get enough of that out there it it demands larger studies larger experimental Interventional trials and uh and that's and that's just what we're working for um I'm already convinced that there's plenty of evidence there's more than enough evidence to to suggest this as as a safe approach for my patients and it works and it gets real results and that's what hypocrates said is that don't just go off the Dogma you know and back then it was like you praying to Apollo and things like that no do things that actually work don't just pray and hope it happens just do what's in front of you you do this it works you do that it doesn't work you don't do that you do this other thing that's what you do it's a that having that that sign adding that scientific method to medicine and that's and that's what this is you know why am I going to do the old treatment that just prolongs the suffering and makes things slowly get worse but inevitably get worse and then they need surgeries and get organs removed and amputations and they get sicker and sicker until they just die out of frustration and misery and when I can put them on something like this and it sorts them out like that objectively their bloods improve their symptoms improve their disease goes into remission or goes in that direction and I can see this and I have I have clear evidence of that I can show to a board and I can show and I can publish and I can say hey look I made this intervention and their testosterone normalized they came out of um they came out of menopause at 56 I have I have about six patients who came out of menopause in their mid-50s by going on a cornivore diet I have I don't know how many dozens of men that whose testosterone have gone up from basically needing testosterone replacement to now being normal for a 25 5-year-old man in their 60s and 70s um diabetes just goes away I mean you know that's becoming more commonly known now autoimmunity just disappears as well blood pressure medications you know don't you know get uh well blood pressure issues get um improved to this to the point that they don't really need blood pressure medication for many of them and you know the list just goes on and on and on and on and on so I can show that objectively that these people are getting better know they're not getting harmed by it because I can show that objectively they're saying they feel better their symptoms are going away and all of their T lab tests are showing and proving that they're getting better their fatty liver disease is going away all their kidney issues are going away um you know their their cognition scores on the mini mental state exam that's improving on all these things like this is this is objective evidence that this is getting better and that's what we're supposed to do so why would I just do the other thing you know praying to Apollo just well we've always done this and Apollo will give and that's what the guidelines are oh just follow the guidelines follow the guidelines you're following something blindly even though you have evidence in front of you that it's not as good as something else like that that's that's irresponsible and it's unethical frankly and so you know if you see this you know as as my friend Dr Gary FY says you can't unsee it and you see this work you see this reverse diabetes you see it reverse kidney failure you and when we're seeing this in in actual studies in humans and animals now that this does reverse uh kidney diseases diabetic kidney uh reop or diabetic um nephropathy and um and even polycystic kidney disease you know this is shown out of University California in Santa Barbara with Professor Thomas wimes and so you're seeing this in real time completely revolutionize People's Health and you say no no the guidelines say this other thing so we're going to do that that's unethical in my in my book now if you don't know about it sure but if you've seen it you can't unsee it and you can't go back to praying to Apollo you just can't yeah yeah I mean just speaking about the hypocritic oath like it is doing harm there's so much harm being done it's actually a crime and yeah I mean I I always just speak about the body's innate ability to heal itself when put in the right environment to do so and obviously part of that the biggest modifier is nutrition um like just thinking that it's like you know you should earn your surgery if you're going to have a freaking organ removed like you need to earn your surgery like yeah it's just it's so it's so backwards um because that's not our Natural State as we've already alluded to now of course I'm not refuting that there are instances where these things need to happen and thank goodness for modern medicine but yeah I mean I I have people that that I know that are like proud at how many medications they take every day it's like it's so backwards it's so backwards um yeah yeah I have so much to say but it's you it's it makes me angry yeah well and and that's and that's why you know we have to to do this and and have yeah I mean if if nothing else then you know talk about these things on podcasts and YouTube and at least let people know that they can get healthy and then you just try it and you try and you get better great you know if you try you like it fine you know but at least you know about it at least you know that you can try it and you know going you know as you say you with hypocrates and the hypocritic oath and you know Do no harm this is doing harm it's definitely doing harm and if you if you see those two things and you see well standard of care is U gets result a and you know doing changing someone's diet gets result B and result B is wildly better you actually are doing harm if you don't do that if you choose no I'm going to go standard care you know you're you're you're walking on U very thin uh moral grounds there and it's um it's I don't think you're doing the right thing um there's a couple other quotes attributed to hypocrates as well which I really like which are obviously you know let food be thy medicine and Medicine thy food I mean he was calling this 2 200 years ago I know you know and uh but then the other one that goes with that which I think is is very uh very poignant is um he said before you try to heal someone first ask them if they're willing to give up that which is making them sick and that's what it is our natural state is that of health and so it's basically just stop hurting yourself and your body will get on with being healthy and I think that's that's so important to understand we're not flawed physical beings maybe we're flawed uh you know from a spiritual point of view and you know all that sort of stuff but physically biologically we are not we are not flawed as a species and so if we're having massive problems and diseases and disorders it's because we are doing something to ourselves and that's there something in our environment that's damaging our biology and Physiology and so you just remove that problem goes away and that's something that is very important to uh to understand and you know so they understood that hypocrates understood that even the ancient Egyptians knew that something like it's a quote I don't know how if they know how old this is but it's thousands of years old probably a couple thousand years older than uh hypocrates because ancient Egypt was I mean ancient Egyptians were studying ancient Egyptians 2,000 years before you know before them and uh and now you know Cleopatra is uh closer to us and the iPhone than she was to the building of the pyramids which is kind of crazy and she was Macedonian so that's that's something not everybody understands but um the um the the saying in ancient Egypt was uh half of what you eat feeds you and half of what you eat feeds your doctor and I think that is just such a funny line because it's just like it's like yeah half for you and the other Hat's making you fat and sick and you have to go to your doctor to get sorted out and you have to pay him and so that's that's feeding him and his family and uh I think it's just such a great great line that would would do very well to remember yeah 100% that needs to even like be made into a movie somehow just revolving around that line hectic yeah yeah goty to get that work in somewhere you know there's a few carnivore documentaries going on maybe we can treat see if we can get get that worked in somewhere yeah 100% 100% yeah W uh well Kelsey thank you so much for coming on it's been an absolute pleasure I really appreciate you taking the time and sharing your story and I'm sure everybody has uh really appreciated it got a lot out of it so thank you for that thank you so much it's been an honor and thank you for the work that you're doing I mean like my whole family is a huge fan my little brother who's still in school like he goes to his science teachers all the time speaks to them like all of his teachers and he like shares especially I think the most shared um episode that he's from yours has been your year with Thomas AED because a lot of his teachers like their family members have had cancer and then like he yeah he's he's a big big big fan so oh well thank you very much well tell him I said I and uh the cancer one's a big one too because I mean Cancer used to be extremely rare and and people would just be like oh goodness oh gosh it was like it was like just a curse on the family like oh no oh my goodness someone in that family got cancer that's just so horrible now one in two people will get cancer some their life scary insane so that's not just oh we're living longer you know the founding fathers of America died in their 80s and 90s and they were born in the mid 1700s unless they were killed by something you know John Adams was 92 he's born in the mid 1700s Jefferson was 84 and so you know this is people just aren't just living longer in fact um if you take out childhood you know infant mortality and and the violent deaths from Wars and you know violence and things like that you know people were actually living longer uh previously historically than than they are now and they had none of this uh none of this this plague of chronic diseases that we're treating now I mean some of it existed but like heart disease practically didn't exist at all I mean there were there wasn't a single heart attack a death from heart attack reported in the literature in all of America before 1912 that was the very first heart attack in American history was in 1912 and then you know 15 20 years later it's the number one killer in America that doesn't happen by chance and certainly didn't happen from eating meat because we're eating more meat in the 1800s and before than we were in the 1910s 20s and 30s we were eating the least amount of meat in 200 years is sort of a U-shaped curve we started eating more after that but we were eating a lot more before that and so you know it definitely doesn't come from that so it's um yeah yeah it's it's sort of crazy but um yeah yeah well and industrialization and staying stagnant and all things that can cause stress just quickly I I heard the other day that one and two children have been diagnosed with a chronic condition yeah wow like one one and two kids like it's wild yeah I mean I me imagine that like one in two badgers have a chronic disease people like what the hell is going on right is that's not supposed to happen one in two lions have a chronic disease one and two lion cubs have a chronic disease one and two polar bear cubs have a chronic disease one and two elephant uh babies have a I mean that that just doesn't compute I was like well that that doesn't happen and so you'd be like okay well what's going on they're sick there's something happening what is it just you know it just is what it is you probably just didn't notice it you know whales were probably always dying of heart attacks at two you know we probably just didn't know about it and was like it's age it's age probably not yeah you lions are just living longer now Kelsey you know so they're you know they're getting they're getting older and they're getting diseases of getting older you know I mean except you know in the zoo they they just live out their whole their whole life and they don't get any of this stuff and they're in a little box this size they get no exercise and yet they don't get chronic diseases unless you feed them the wrong thing and that's where there signs of the zoo say don't feed the animals they get very sick when they don't eat what they're supposed to eat and then people think that we're from Mars or something like that and that we don't that doesn't apply to us it's absolutely it's absolutely insane but um but anyway I digress um thank you very much Kelsey where can people find you can you give us the name of your social media and your YouTube channel so people can find you sure sure sure so I don't actually have a YouTube channel yet but my podcast you can find it on Spotify or apple or any podcast streaming platform and it's called the human theater and because it's South African it's spelled t h e a t r e um the human theater and then I'm most active on Instagram and it's Kelsey Balter so it's just my name and Sur name and then also quite active on LinkedIn and that's me lovely we'll put all those links in the description and people can find you there Kelsey thank you so much for coming on it's been an absolute pleasure thank you so much Dr chaffy you're welcome and thank you all for joining I hope you found that helpful if you did please do hit the like And subscribe if you haven't already leave a comment let me know what you think and please share this with anyone you think would be helped by see you next time hey guys thank you very much for taking the time out to listen to what I had to say if you like it then please like And subscribe to my YouTube channel and podcast and if you're on YouTube then please hit that little bell and subscribe and that'll let you know anytime I have a new video out which should be every week if not more and if you can share this with your friends that would help me get the word out and let me know that you like what I'm doing thanks again guys