Optimal Diet for Gut Health with Gastroenterologist Dr Pran Yoganathan

hey guys just want to take a second to thank our sponsor carnivore bar I don't promote many products because honestly all you need to be healthy is just eat meat and that's what you should do but if you're hiking or road tripping or stuck at work and you want something nutritious that is just meat fat and possibly salt if you want it the carnivore bar is a great option I like this product not only because it is pure meat but also because I really want the carnivore Market to thrive as well the more we support meat only products the more people will make meat only products and this will bring this into the mainstream so if this sounds like something you'd like to check out then take a look and use my discount code HTC to get 10 off which also applies to subscriptions giving you 25 off total all right thanks guys hey everybody we're back with another episode of the how to Carnival podcast and YouTube series and we're back with Anthony chafee as has been the norm lately so welcome Anthony oh yeah and our special guest Dr pran uganathan Who is a gastroenterologist here in Sydney and he runs the center for gastrointestinal health and pran is an absolute Superstar on on the socials as well named King so if you're not following him make sure you do now so welcome pran thanks Simon thanks Anthony nice to see you both and um great to be on the podcast yeah good to see you man yeah it's good to have you here so we uh we spoke on on uh well you've been on on with both of us individually uh before um and we've you know kept in touch sort of on socials and everything like that but you know how what if since the last time we we saw you like have you been what have you been up to what's what's the update in prayer land um just just building my practice um Anthony you know like I'm very interested in in metabolic health and root course uh medicine it's um very difficult to do it as a gastroenterologist a regulatory body um is quite you know they're quite um strict on these sort of things so the way I figured I'm going to do it and this was a couple of years ago I decided this was to build out a team like no one person can tackle all the ills of the of the world or all the ills of Australia um or even Sydney by themselves so we need a good team to be able to do that and I'm I'm just focused on on building the infrastructure and my practices building out the team of dietitians and the doctors that staff it and we're trying to tackle it as a team really I think it's the best way to grow is to grow together rather than individually so that's been my focus recently of course um the the uh the day-to-day running of the practice uh because I was still working as a gastroenterologist as well um and I'm trying to juggle being a family man and you know father to three kids and and and and um a lovely supportive wives but just all these things happening in life at the moment uh Anthony so um yeah thanks for asking no worries man um and so you know because you do have to focus in and probably stay around the gastroenterology uh you know sort of Realm what what is the focus of your of your practice now what who what sort of patient cohort are you seeing and how are you treating them you know differently than you would have you know in a traditional uh uh sort of uh modality sure well huge proportion of a gastroenterologist practice entity is irritable bowel syndrome irritable bowel syndromes classically being the thing where it's been a a sort of almost a waste bath could diagnosis where you know the patient comes in tells you about their symptoms a lot of it's related to bloating diarrhea constipation abdominal pain reflux can go in and with bad sometimes and and we generally don't these patients do endoscopies and colonoscopy ensure that there's no structural problem no diseases like Crohn's ulcerative colitis cancers so on and so forth and and once we don't find these things we basically say well you've probably got irritable bowel and go and see a dietitian about a low FODMAP diet this is a classical diet that's been utilized in the past keeping in mind and this is very important for your listeners to realize the low FODMAP diet at its heart at its very cause in fact a low carbohydrate diet the fermentable carbohydrates that we we're talking about in these um uh fodmaps acknowledged as a problem the issue that I've often seen with this diet is that it gets you to eliminate all these fermentable carbohydrates but they don't tell you what to replace it with often don't tell you to update the intake of animal proteins and and fats which of course provide Great Society and great um great for us and from a digestive perspective quite easy for us to break down as well um so there's a lot of attrition rate with the FODMAP diet a lot of people just end up not being able to do it because they eliminate eliminate and not replace with the adequate things you've got to remember just from a political and and a um and a conditioning standpoint the message has been for the last 40 years that eggs and meats and these sort of things are bad for you so people see somehow you know equate these to things like free ads for health which is of course crazy and I think all of us in this space are trying to change the mindset from that perspective but I deal with a lot of irritable bowel so I'd say 75 of my practice irritable bowel a lot of them are young patients but there's a huge amount that uh that are older than 40 or 50 and 60s and 70s whatever you know that type of age group where they're coexisting gut issues and metabolic decline so these people often often have you know visceral adiposity obesity blood pressure issues um heart attacks they've gone through heart disease type 2 diabetes and a whole host of medications and a feeling or a thought I had to myself a few years ago was good irritable bowel syndrome just the metabolic syndrome and evolution um you know starting from a very early stage as a child or as a young adult do this ladder point and I think it is and that's the final sort of conclusion I'm coming up with because um we find when we switch people over to a diet that reduces the fodmaps helps out the old proposal food and UPS the animal protein and animal fat people tend to do really well and I think a lot of the nutritional issues disappear that fermentative mode of digestion that people get when consuming a high carbohydrate diet Dominicans and we you know we we get them better and what's interesting in some of the older patients with coexisting metabolic problems and their metabolic issues to disappear like they put their type 2 diabetes into remission their obesity starts improving the quality of life goes up so um that's my practice um it's a mixed bag I mean I think I'm very well positioned as a gastroenterologist to capture people who've got inadequate diets or poor diets I mean it's a good good space to be in so I think as a specialist I think I'm very um not qualified I mean that that comes across the cocky I just think I mean in a in a position to be able to address people's diet I think um I'm very privileged from that perspective I think that um you know as a gastroenterologist I mean you you are directly dealing with you know the first effects of digestion and and absorption of food and how this affects it that you know that the very first level you know and so yeah if anyone um is going to have some insights on that I think it would absolutely be uh yourself and um people in that space um and you do you deal a lot with um you know IBD like Crohn's and all sort of colitis as well yep we do um my experience of Crohn's Disease and I'll sort of colitis it's been it's been mixed um I think uh we've got to we've got to acknowledge that the people that seek up out actively um people like yourself Anthony and me have often made their mind up that they are willing to undertake a diet no matter how restrictive or how difficult or how how deviated from their hyper palatable diet of the past like a standard Australian or a standard Western diet they already made their mind up so sometimes we can end up with populations that are basically ready to make the move which is a great thing which is good they're motivated they're ready to go they've had enough of the standard medical system that doesn't address diet so we tend to see really good results in in people like that right but I see a mixed bag Anthony so not not many people not many people know about my interest in nutrition I'm still as I said a community gastroenterologist so I get all sorts of people and and it's confronting for these people to hear that maybe maybe that special K you know cereal or the Fruit Loops but they're having for breakfast might not necessarily be great for their type 2 diabetes of gut issues so um can I do we Institute dietary changes for inflammatory bowel disease absolutely forgetting people to make that decision to do it is very very difficult um and in in in the in the few that have made the decision to change I've seen rapid resolution and ulcerative colitis in particular I think Crohn's disease is a little bit more complicated and I'm not sure exactly why that is but there's something about the phenotype of Crohn's where I've we've seen great results as well with dietary changes but there are also some where the dietary changes haven't made any difference to the progression of of the disease so this is where it's quite valuable because I've got Associates here that a gas neurologist that that have act that uh biologics and and some of the higher grade drugs that we use and often we use a combination in these sort of individuals of both lifestyle diet modification sleep and and medications that try and try and get on top of that so um yeah just to kind of summarize that that question you've asked we do see rapid resolution um of inflammatory bowel disease with with the dietary changes but they're in some cases where we we don't in addition getting people to make the dietary changes when they're a fresh patient for you not quite initiated in that in that pathway that's very difficult yeah sort of brown I see that kind of dietary recommendations that like just just herton puts out and I've read some of the kind of Publications that that you guys have and it's certainly a kind of a a gentler message in a way to the sort of stuff that like Anthony and I talk about which is hey if you want to be healthy just eat meat and nothing else whereas you know I see the stuff that you guys put out and it's like hey eating lower carbohydrate is actually better for you um hey including some healthy fats from meat and salmon is good for you like you know that's sort of stuff where you've really people aren't going to turn on a dime you know you're trying to get people to turn a little towards a healthier lifestyle so you know when you when I follow you two and look at the Publications that are coming out you know it's it's all the same message it's all trying to get people healthier in the same way but but yours but yours is certainly more more gradual and gentle given the nature of as you say your community gastroenterologist yeah look um I was a cricket player Anthony was a rugby player so yeah it is blocking yeah I'm the gentler one out of the two look it um from from experience Simon like just if you've got individuals that are 60 70 years in this psychary Paradigm um their condition man and it's it's not easy to snap them out of it whereas uh the the greatest results we've had are with our younger patients they're so much more malleable they're newer you know maybe there's a little bit of neuroplasticity there where they can change their behavioral habits we've had great results with with younger patients not saying some of our older patients haven't had great results they have but um um yeah we we have to definitely get that gentle message across and um you know and from what we've seen it doesn't necessarily need to be a full carnivore Spectrum some people enjoy carbohydrates um me included but you know and um and and for these people it's just about teaching them that is this is in fact a fuel source and you've got to try and earn this um and and the right type of carbohydrate you know refined versus unrefined and uh hopefully one that's not you know spread to high heaven with glyphosate these are the sort of basic principles that we're trying to teach them yeah well it's also um you know I mean it's absolutely true you know some people just aren't ready for that you know the message that you know Simon and I are are putting out there and and again you know upset people you know and I haven't gotten like the the hate mail like the vegan hate mail that that a lot of people do but you know every now and then you'll get some comment going like oh this is BS like how can you say X Y and Z and I'll actually engage with them and just be like okay well this is why you know and um you know sometimes I can turn them around and other times it's just a lost cause uh and that's fine you know but yeah you're right you know it's just that you can't you can't just you can't you can't hit everyone with this with the bulldozer you know and um you know some people are just uh you know they you need to be coaxed into it and or at least getting that that understanding that like okay what we've been told for the last 40 years is may not actually be 100 true and maybe start you know sort of doing that and just sort of you know walking them towards you know the uh in the direction that actually meets good for you actually you know carbohydrates and and sugar are problematic and uh and then you know working on from that standpoint but I also like the approach medically as a medical practitioner of of trying to incorporate these things and doing the best that you can and like you say you know not everyone's going to respond onto that and respond to those that dietary message and be like whoa whoa this is this is a little far out there I don't want to do that and that and that's fine you do the best you can but you know what um you know at least you're trying because you know a lot of doctors just be like well it's too hard to get people to change what to eat so we just need to focus on medicine I can give them a pill that's easy and I think that that's you know it's sort of giving up and um I did a sort of a live q a session um actually earlier today and and one of the questions was that um was a sort of comment that you know someone had said that you know their son who had epilepsy he was like 13. um that he that that someone suggested that he didn't go keto or carnivore because while yes this could be good for you know suppressing seizures or not precipitating seizures in the first place if he ever had a cheat day or something like that you know he'd be at risk of getting a seizure and um it turned out it was his neurologist that said this and I was blown away it was just like this guy is recognizing that this actually helps prevent seizures and he's saying don't do it because you know if you if you stop doing it then you'll get seizures you know you're recognizing that there are there are things in there that can precipitate seizures I mean that's insane I mean that's like telling someone to stay off their seizure medication because if they ever stop their seizure medication they'll have seizures like well right you've just stopped your seizure medication then so you know and and so I've spoken to neurologists that that do the whole yeah it's really it's really hard to get people and not eat carbs even though we have 100 Years of data and and experiments showing that just a keto diet not even a carnivore diet um is very efficacious for uh suppression of seizures um that it's difficult for them to get them off guards this guy's going the opposite he's saying no no no don't do that you know and I I thought that was just crazy you know so yeah yeah I agree uh Anthony that's super frustrating to hear my my heart rate's gone up about 20 20 just listening to that because um that that's what we're we're experiencing as well what are fundamentally come to the realization is you know we we've got we've got gamblers we've got addicts we've got alcohol or drug addicts we've got all form of addicts or forms of addicts and some sometimes the judge you know stigmatized by Society the reality that we've all got to acknowledge is as a society we're addicted to food we we've engineered these hyper palatable Foods we've normalized this behavior and then socially engineered it um and not just socially scientifically engineered into the nutritional guidelines and so forth and you've got these bureaucrats and and and and and various um you know technical college governances that that before this message repeatedly so the reality is we we are now addicted to the food so and you've got to acknowledge the statistic Anthony we've spoken on this before but 60 to 70 percent of our our Workforce our medical Workforce is overweight or obese so these these individuals are fighting their own struggles um day to day you know and and I think for them the the thought of a dietary intervention for themselves is too difficult so then they pass that bias on to the patients they say well the patient can't do that either so that's a very sad reality of um of where we stand so really the message that we're trying to put across is straight away um you know um doubted or or um uh contradicted by this uh treating Specialist or treating general practitioner with whom they might have had a relationship for 20 30 years so um this conflicting messages um in in this health space um and they're certainly and that's certainly a barrier to good care yeah absolutely um and what what are your thoughts on you know that sort of top-down approach you know from the government pushing these hyperpalatable Foods you know pushing just processed sugary garbage is that is that purely just a conflict of um conflict of interest you know the the the you know the uh lobbyists you know you know basically bribing politicians and paying for their campaigns and and uh backdoor deals and then they they push and promote this as an industrial thing is it do you think it's just a um a financial uh issue or do you think there's more going on there more going on there I think Anthony it's I mean it's we know that the beef Lobby is relatively powerful in America I mean they Lobby hard as well so the question is why can't there may be influenced used to influence um Podiatry guidelines the uh the conclusion that I've come to is that the sugar Lobby is just far more powerful it's far more profit in that Sugar industry much bigger margins so they've just got better money to play with and I think in the end of the day the dollar rules I think you know 1954 Henry Hast it was the president of the sugar Research Foundation and his feet is stunning he gave this to a bunch of nutritionists and um this speech basically went on to say that that was a problem that was what was causing heart disease and sugar if we could replace 30 of the calories from sugar we would do better 30 of the fat from and replace it with sugar would do better and and and he fundamentally convinced um or that Lobby be convinced people that we need sugar to run the body sugar is the field that runs our body day-to-day um forgetting that we all carry kilograms of fat fat on us even the leanest person so it's been years of conditioning the lobbies has gotten bigger that industry's gotten powerful but we're talking about turnover in the billions we've got to understand that cattle industry uh whilst it can be profitable um certainly in the last couple of years in Australia it's been very profitable but does the farmer actually in end up seeing that profit a lot of times it just doesn't happen because as prices of um of Transportation goes up their margins getting eaten into and I think that industry has always been a um uh a product um but the product's great but the the margins not so not first class unfortunately so I just think they've got less leverage when it comes to that lobbying side of it and um you know we've got to admit it I mean you might disagree Anthony and I'll definitely disagree as well but um and I'm sure Simon will as well but sugar do a addicted person it's just far more palatable than than media is um you know they've just been conditioned um that way and it releases much more of a dopamine hit and and I think it's easy to addict people to Sugar it's very hard to addicted to beef yeah yeah and and yeah to your point the uh the uh I saw a figure uh that uh Dr lustig uh mentioned in one of his talks a couple years ago that uh and in his in his book um where he discusses all of this talking about how the sugar industry uh gross earnings is something like 1.3 trillion dollars a year and of that about 400 billion is profit you know huge and massive massive and so and then how they calculated it uh we also spent about 2.4 trillion dollars in the medical field just treating the effects of sugar consumption just sugar you know like that that's it so you know there's there's a huge there's about a two trillion dollar disparity there you know they're making you know 400 billion but they're costing everyone else you know quite a lot more and yeah and so it's um you know that could be tied up into it as well as as much as I would hate to think that that you know that that people want people to be sick so that they can sort of you know sell them expensive things to sort of you know piece the bits together and and eat along I hope that's not the case I'm sure some people have that um have that motivation but I I would think it's it's a more rare I just don't think people really realize that exactly you know how bad this is I would I would hope anyway yeah I think you're right about that I think you think like the majority of politicians it's so entrenched that um you know carbohydrates are good for you uh May causes heart disease Etc that really the vast majority of them are just kind of repeating that dogma and um you know are happy to keep pushing along the sugar industry yeah all the carbohydrates and the thoughts that come that come with it yeah and I've already mentioned um technocratic governance Simon technocratic government is really interesting it's where a you've got a body atop government which basically elects um uh elects experts specific experts in their field and these experts often don't have a great understanding of the whole picture and these experts basically then set into place methods of of protocols or guidelines or whatnot and that's what we see with the with the nutritional guidelines is these people are just you know just rehashing the same tired old information um and you know going back to Anthony's point um you know I I I'll be less gentle there and I'll say absolutely there's motivation to keep people sick and we've spoken before of the um the big food or agricultural pharmaceutical medical industrial complex which which this complex cannot function independence of of each other you need to have really badly done agriculture with the mono crop terrible pesticide you know fertilizers so forth to produce these foods that are used in that junk food industry by big food and then you end up with a nation of people addicted to these foods that end up thick requiring the medical complex the medical complex support is schooled by the universities where our Academia is fundamentally infiltrated with a lot of these conflicts of interest so you we've got an entire Workforce of health professionals that think diet has nothing to do with disease it's an absolute disaster so it's a cultural cultural problem and I think it needs a massive shift and it needs to it needs to be led by the doctors I think the doctors need to kind of pick pick up themselves and pick up the a group of powerful uh group of people the the population behind them and I think um a lot needs to change but the you know we're really swimming up up to Green against a very powerful side yeah and um you know and that's another good point too is because that you know you'll see that the different Food Industries uh will actually sponsor medical organizations and you know the diabetes Foundation the American Heart Association all the things they have their funding from like I don't know I'm just just you know saying here but like things like Coca-Cola and PepsiCo and all these sorts of uh companies that are obviously uh you know selling things that aren't that aren't really good for them so there's that there's that absolutely that conflict of interest and uh and universities as well the professors um are generally quite compromised you know even in medical schools there was a there was this there was a paper that came out or sorry a news article that came out uh talking about how bad the Harvard Medical School professors were compromised and with the the pharmaceutical industry and they had that all these different ties and being paid off by you know multiple different companies and they weren't being transparent about it and so they actually got there was some sort of grading system I forget what it was but it was like basically they had an f grade in uh how how compromised their professors were and this was at Harvard you know and and so and some people say wow even at Harvard I was like especially at Harvard I mean they um you know when you have something to sell you know you get a high price for it so that's just it's going to corrupt a lot of people and um you know and talking about you know the Democratic Society with like you know just getting experts I don't have this expert in this thing and so therefore they'll be able to get it how'd that work with the Vietnam War you know that's exactly what they did they had all these I forget the name of the group but it was like it was like these experts who have this expert in this this experience holiday or there's most brilliant people and they're just so great and then just manage just mismanage this into a complete disaster however you however you come you know along with the Vietnam War I think everyone can agree that there's a lot of mismanagement of it and and a lot of that had to do with that sort of technocratic governance that as opposed to letting people you know involved in the in the industry that had a sort of a wider view on things and it directly affected them because if you know if I go out and I'm a platoon leader and I make a mistake I'm dead too you know where someone's sitting and sitting there and you know protected house somewhere you know with a bunch of Secret Service agents because going yeah yeah you guys should do this he pays no price for being wrong zero accountability yeah yeah it's not even like a politician who may get voted out I mean this guy's just been appointed like he's he's there's there's no fault there's no drawback that this there's no downside to this guy messing up and so he doesn't actually have um you know the rights uh you know you know um you know motivations and uh you know well motivation is aside but it may not have the right um you know things driving him to just make sure that that he's not screwing up um but yeah and um yeah I you know also think back about you know different different societies that have limited meat specifically to to sort of keep people sick and unhealthy and not as as well I know there was a post that you did pran yeah talking about um you know in India how they sort of took people out of the forest would be out out of the you know where they were living naturally put them into sort of you know close clustered uh communities and have them work in their in the big British you know plantations and factories or and they paid them in Grain and so you know and this is this is something that that uh you may have just been at happiness like this is just how we pay people but you have to sort of wonder if that wasn't you know a bit thought out of like oh let's give these people this stuff that will sort of keep them a bit a bit suppressed and mollified uh you have any thoughts on that yeah absolutely I mean you know what happened in India was a very telling thing and what you're alluding to there um was the um freeze and and Forest facts where where the British basically took control of forests the Lakes the farming land and all the all the food was basically harvested and and sent back to Europe or or to England England to Imperial England and the local schools were paid in grains and because their grains they're obviously very difficult to you know enjoy for her pallet perspective a lot of the flavors in India you know these curries that are sold so um uh sought after in this modern world a lot of those were created in that era where these these locals basically tried to make the food as palatable as possible um it's terrible so you know people often ask me I mean I was born a a Hindu into a Hindu family I'm not practicing or anything like that and how can I eat beef if that's my background while I say well I don't ate a colonial diet you know I eat the diet that that my forefathers prior to that indoctrination uh consumed so with regards to is that going on at the moment it's a really difficult territory to read Anthony because I just look at what's occurring at the moment there's no doubt like people like Bill Gates and and and all these Global elitists um Prince William or whoever all these people were spouting this idea of meets bad for the environment and then we should replace it with bugs and fake plant meats that which Ultra process I can't see them consuming that I can't see them consuming it no if they want yeah but they want the math that to to consume it so in a way that there you have a hoarding of a resource that they know is valuable uh but they've somehow got to convince the masses not to um not to consume it and I think it's got to be done in a much more subtle fashion in this modern world they can't come across with a very violence or overt acts of starvation um but but perhaps these are the ways in which it's being employed but the other side of me says well maybe they're not evil people maybe what's occurring at the moment is simply just an absolute bar where the they've just gotten it wrong because they they seem to be locking up um valuable Farmland there's a lot of this carbon regeneration where they're planting it with mono crop New Zealand in particular this is very very very um uh concerning there where they're losing Prime agricultural land for grazing to monocrop the Pine which can't be used for anything I'm not I'm not yeah it's not I mean I and I'm not a climate denialist there's no doubt that human beings they're influencing um the Earth climate certainly warming and we're in that warming state or perhaps coming out of an ice age but um the rate that which is which is warming is is it's quite significant it is quite significant so he and we are contributing to that there's no doubt about it without modern agricultural methods but but planting out mono crop Pine simply is not the way to do it because you're taking out the ability to do uh grazed ruminance ruminants when they Grace properly and it's done in a regenerative way they help protect their carbon their carbon you know overall carbon negative um as opposed to a positive like many people think and they're part of a solution and you know there's been some wonderful people in this space you know Dinah Rogers and Rob Walker written a fantastic book about it but there's many more and there's many more regenerative Farmers doing this in practice like Charlie Arness in in New South Wales is fantastic regenerative farmer and they're part of the solution but that doesn't seem to be considered so I can't help but wondering perhaps business and oversight but they're somehow made a mistake and in this mad Panic that that the the planet somehow going to end suddenly which seems to be a catastrophic prediction um that they're they're sort of were reaching but I can't help but feel that there's something sinister going on because I was in San Diego recently beautiful part of the world Anthony um loved it it was great and um and we happened to go past Bill Gates beachfront home um over there so he can't be too worried about climate change the rising sea levels yeah yeah that's exactly right that's exactly right yeah I think I think a big part of it is disconnection from nature Agriculture and the land because you know people are so you look at Australia the vast majority of the populations live you know on the Eastern Seaboard in in major Capital Cities and and how much exposure do they really get to Farmland Open Spaces animals and people who run these farms and so there is kind of this sort of just total misunderstanding for for what might be happening on Rural properties where people are creating the most nutritious food possible uh and you know these farmers are incentivized to care for their land and make sure that it's there for their children and and I I think you have an honest discussion with with you know 100 farmers and 99 of them will say yeah I want to leave this place better uh you know for my kids than when I inherited it when I bought it um and you know whether they all kind of are super tuned into the regen movement um you know or like their grasp it or whatever but you know they're trying to do the right thing and and some of these people who who are you know they're ethical and they care about their land they're being demonized and they're being you know the thing is being pointed at them as being like you know these nasty people who are causing the climate to change the world to end uh and it's very convenient for you know for people like Bill Gates who want to who want to take over and instead grow a heap of monocropic P protein uh and encourage people to buy that and convince them that it's better for their healthy environment Etc so yeah disconnection is a big part of the problem yeah I think I think people people have this idea that me just kind of appears on the on the supermarket shelf and fruits and vegetables and and so forth Just appear on the on the supermarket itself and you're right they're they're completely disconnected and this is often seen in in groups that hunt you know like we've got Hunters all through um Australia and these are these are some wonderful people and I've hunted with them and been with them and and I keep in touch with them very close with a lot of these hunters and they get a lot of hate um from from people but these are some of the most ethical people I've met they they obviously speak out this animal spend hours seeking out there you know it's not easy hunting deer Simon and and um once the animal is um the life has ended they treat it with utter respect I've seen some of the guys you know literally With Tears in their eyes as they harvest the animal they thank the animal they take away the meat they value the meat and then they eat it together as a group and it's kind of how humans would have done it historically no part of the animal is kind of left wasted um and and and that's the natural cycle of Life uh whereas these are the guys copying hate you know somehow made out to be these horrible cruel people but these people are deeply connected to the food and where where it's coming from and I think if more people did that if more people hunted if more people went on farms they actually saw what happened in Barns I think their perspective would change but we've become caged in in a concrete jungle which is probably become our zoo I think we we're we're caged animals in this in this mess and and um that's a fundamental part of where we've gone wrong yeah I totally agree I think that you know when you're you know when you're you just live in a city you just think like this is just how how the world is and you really just don't know you know before when it was more agrarian and you know most people lived out on farms or in rural areas or at least went there and and went hunting and you know maybe had a uh you know a farm or Ranch and everyone's sort of you know self-sufficient um you know people had a very different outlook on the world it was much more realistic and and uh uh you know rational sort of sort of point of view I mean even even just like you know talking to people especially in Australia when there's just nothing but open land and talking about overpopulation it's just like in in Australia really and and they was like oh my God yeah look how crowded it is traffic's just getting worse because they're thinking about their little microcosm of the town they live in and then and then you you asked someone's like okay you drive five minutes out of town what do you see absolutely nothing and you drive for you know on the west coast there is there is no other City both sides Perth you know at all you know yeah you go to little town that's it and they're and they're you know eight hours drive between them some of these things and uh but even on the East Coast it's it's um it's like that as well we live in in concentrated huddles and you know I I point out to people that just in America and in America obviously you know you know continental US is about the size of of Australia and then we have Alaska which is sort of another wa added on to that and um so it's a lot of territory but we have 320 plus million people as opposed to exported 25 to 30 million people in Australia and yet the the entire you know man-made footprint in America is only five percent of the open land so so 95 of the land in America even with that many people is still open and and um and I when I was in Bangladesh uh in the refugee camps there you know it was this area smaller than Washington State probably the size of Ireland uh the country of Ireland uh Bangladesh is roughly around there and while Ireland has sort of like you know five six million people Washington state has around seven million people Bangladesh had 163 million people and so you're just like Jesus and someone coming from Seattle going like this must have been chaos right because everyone lives in Seattle and Seattle is chaos it's miserable traffic but right outside of Seattle it's nothing but open land and in Bangladesh it was basically nothing but open land they're just these natural Pro uh pristine jungles with wild elephants you know that was actually a problem in the in the refugee camps because I mean this is this is just you know people not you know we have examples of people being silly people all over the world and um they built this refugee camp basically stripped this entire jungle with massive thing it took took an hour and a half to drive through this this whole refugee camp obviously you're not driving that fast with dirt roads but still took a long time to get through and it's just it's just tarps tents made out of tarps just as far as you could see and and they did this right through a major elephant migratory route and it's just like guys and so sure enough the elephants come back and they're just like and elephants are like this is my land this is my root anything is in my way is going to get knocked down and they just went straight through the refugee camp and just bowling through tents and buildings and things like that just people are smart aren't they yeah we're really highly evolved yeah well and you know the thing was is that is that they saw it coming you know like I talked to people when I was there they're like oh actually this is a migratory route so yeah yeah we'll see what happens there and then it happened exactly what they thought was going to happen happened it was just like Jesus come on guys but yeah um but yeah I think that um you know when people are stuck in in the in the cities it's just it's just going to be a different thing you're going to have a different Outlook and mindset and and I think that you know you know getting in touch with nature and all that sort of thing sounds sort of hippy-dippy but it like it I think it really changed your perspective and like you know it sounds like you know you've been going hunting that's something that I've been wanting to do I do like to get out in nature but I think that it's important to to know where your food comes from and to be a realist and be involved in that and um you know I think that's uh I think that's a really important thing to do and you know and I I want to eat meat I want to kill I want to eat animals and that's that's the right thing for me and my family but you know I I as as a result I should be you know man enough to go and do that myself because you know that's that what we are talking about you know killing another animal so that we can live and that is something to take seriously that's something that humans have taken seriously uh I mean there's there's records in every society of this you know like you know the Native Americans you know you know after they kill an animal they pray to their spirits and thank them and and do different sort of ritualistic things to to help to help that Spirit of that animal you know have a blessed uh afterlife and so I think that is something that we really should take seriously and like you say you know people that are hunting often do have much more respect for life and especially the life of the animals that they hunt than other people these aren't just just you know uh you know burgeoning serial killers that are going around you know like killing the neighborhood cats and things like that yeah like it's this is this is something they take very seriously and solemnly uh to to feed them and and to help us feed their family absolutely and absolutely and and you know mates are very precious and expensive commodity now so for some some some of these guys to be able to kill a deer or or um or a goat or something like that that would provide for many months that animal would sustain them for many months that's how much protein can be generated out of a single animal um and and you're absolutely right they they are deeply connected I I wish more people were um see where our food actually comes from but you know people are attracted to this idea of being in a city and again we're conditioned Anthony condition that we must go to school we must do a University degree must take out a loan most of us anyway the smart one sometimes opt out early but but um and and once we've gotten a job following the University degree now we've got to pay off the loan we've got to get the house settle in the house get a mortgage and we're conditioned to these things um you know perhaps there's nothing wrong with opting out a society and and out of that gentrified mess and saying listen I'm going to purchase a rural land and and and can live on land because you know when you look at the property prices and these gentrified areas or in these suburbs in in major cities that they're extremely high and Rural property can you know you could buy hundreds of acres of land or thousands even for the for the same amount that you've dropped on a house in in you know on a 300 square meter space in Philly somewhere yeah sure so you know and this land always gives back I mean the land is often rich I mean depends on where you are but you've got a good water source it's open rich in in things like wild goats and and pigs and Kangaroos and and deer and whatnot and you can obviously farm the land as well regeneratively regeneratively perhaps as time goes on we'll see more people opting out of this modern day um chaos in in the cities and and choosing that way of life as you've said huge proportions of Australia is unoccupied you know the vast majority of it all is and we know that human beings have a level of Ingenuity where even the most arid lands can be regenerated um into something more productive you know if you can build a city like Las Vegas in in the middle of a desert you know we can certainly start up more communities and and and perhaps find our tribes in these because I think we're very tribal people and most of us are attending to segregate into these tribal groups on social media perhaps we can do it in real life in these um in these communities that are outside of the city but maybe I'm a romantic and perhaps that that idea may never come to fruition but but um you know I think I think some of the smarter people will start seeing it this way yeah I think so for sure I mean you can you can create that reality for yourself and and you are brand you're you're working on that but I think it's a it's a pretty idyllic scenario where you've got a network of friends say for example across your state or across the country and you can drop into their farm and property whenever and have these experiences of learning about how they're running their farm and their property and go hunting together and spend time outside and have that real connection and yeah it is it's a bit it's a bit sort of counter mainstream because as you say you know we're certainly indoctrinated and conditioned into school and then you know University and then work borrow spend repeat repeat for 40 50 years retire you know yep yep retire on a super annuation which the government's inflated away to nothing so by the time you you've gotten your superannuation package you you know what you buy a nice car or something like that and you know and the average age is by you know it's it's 85. you get another 20 for 25 years having to try and survive on on this mess so these economic policies don't don't kind of help uh things but I think I think people will have to speak a different method of doing it um otherwise they will have the decision made for them I mean but there's a lot of talk about Universal basic income and and whatnot and that's the sign of a socialist State I think that's where we're all we're all heading uh perhaps you know perhaps if you will see the light and and and and make some changes make some positive changes yeah I uh and you know some of the more I you know go on like the more I see all this like the more attractive it is to just just get a chunk of land somewhere and just and just just live off the land and just live how people have lived for quite a long time and I think that would be much more fulfilling I keep looking at like you know like different books and things like that on my shelf I haven't had a chance to read in just months and I'm just like God I really wish I just had time to just sit and just read and just do nothing except like do that and um and uh and you know and and just the thought of that you know just being out on land or having someone come over hey this is how we do this and you have the time and you can take the time to have someone go around and go hunting and go do these things it's just like the thought of that is really appealing to me because you're just talking about like you you're just your time is your own and you're living your life and you're surviving and you're maybe your business is cattle or you're at least self-sustained and and um and then your time is is used for living as opposed to toiling and that's very appealing uh to me the more I go and um you know as you say you know even in arid areas I mean look at look at uh you know the Middle East and like Israel they have uh very limited Waters so they have to be very um they have to have a lot of Ingenuity uh and then they say they come up with a lot of different things they have this um watering system where it like goes through under underground and it just like drops out at the roots and so it's just like the the water is not wasted yeah it's very efficient we're whereas like most places are like you know flood irrigation they just dump out a ton of water most of that is is evaporating out and getting wasted and because you know we're subsidizing this well we need the farmers we need to do this it's easy for them to waste it and so they just go yeah it's coming in cheap it's just how you do it they don't have to be Innovative they don't have to be um you know ingenious about it whereas in Israel it's just like no this is the cost of water whether you're getting you know having a glass to drink having a shower or you know planting crops and so like okay well I have to I have to figure out how to do this a little better and so you know sometimes that that's a driver for uh you know Ingenuity when you're putting in stress you know there's no growth in a comfort zone if it's just easy then why change you know yeah absolutely I couldn't couldn't agree more um Anthony you know there's a phenomenal physicist in the 60s Nikolai kardashkev I don't know if you've heard of him he he's the guy who developed the Kardashian scale and he talked about the five stages of human civilization and he defined us the current way we are the type of zero civilization he said we will probably reach a type 1 status in about another 300 years a lot of scientists that look into this area um talk about and in that what a type 1 civilization kind of signifies the ability to control everything around us that we can utilize the fun for for his energy for completely um be be able to control whether patterns potentially as well and just fundamentally terraform areas that that uh at the moment unlivable I mean we're talking about terraforming marks um which to me sounds sounds like Madness um when when when we've got we've got so much so much land and I don't think we're particularly overpopulated but but as a group as a species collectively especially in the West in the Democratic West places like Australia and America there's this sense of self-loathing amongst People of Our Generation they they are truly they are capable of themselves that the fact that they feel that they're contributing to this planet's destruction somehow contributing to it um and it doesn't allow for a great mindset I don't think I mean I don't think it burns them into action I think it burns on a lot of mental health uh issues and anxieties and so forth and many of them are choosing not to procreate because the extent of self-loathing um and and and and and for me that that's Madness I mean to be able to reproduce um is was one of the greatest gifts bestowed upon us and we've got plenty of resources and declining birth rate I think um I think we need to um change that mindset humans are a key part of the ecosystem and and the most important aspect of the world world and we can shape things to make things better and we have ever since we've been alive and you know I think it's it's for example uh if you sort of look at like national parks as as an example people assume that okay if we just lock up land don't do anything to it that will somehow be more beneficial to the environment all of that will you know they'll have some big net positive but in reality the best thing you can do is get people in there to run animals and landscape and create a more you know ponds and all sorts of stuff that is actually even better for the ecosystem like you can you know you could take an arid Farm in Australia lock it up it'll still be an arid Farm in 10 20 years but if you actually get people in there to regenerate it you use it for practical means it can still be profitable um you know it becomes something better than if you just don't have people that people are helpful their whole self-loathing um you know overpopulation argument you know I think it's just crazy and the thought that you'd be discouraged from raising a a family with you know productive children and teaching them everything you've learned and hoping that they surpass you to think that that would be possibly something that you shouldn't do is just Madness absolutely mate absolutely and and you know we've got to remember that that Africa and Australia are so different in terms of their their um their land and we think that's just because of geography is not it's Africa had vast you know herds of rumen and animals millions of years ago and these rumen and animals fundamentally change that landscape that that's how they work and that's why Africa's got grass and and trees season doesn't have the same amount of deserts and so forth that arid land that that Australia has we didn't have the ruminants here we we had um these marsupial creatures that don't graze the same way so really it'll be lovely to get people to think that that ruminants can kind of help us regenerate the planet as opposed to Alpha you know as opposed to the distraction that they're causing and and what a wonderful solution because not only do they provide that solution to make make the planet Greener um when farmed the right way they've also provide us with this valuable food stores where they're taking protein and amino acid generated from the soil and the grass and converting it into an edible protein that human beings can can access because we can't eat the grass directly we can't access the same amount of nutrients in amino acids that that the the ruminants can so it's just such a win-win situation but it's to me it just it blows my mind that we've been conditioned to believe otherwise AI like um yeah the just just to to re you know to add on to what you guys were saying about you know people not wanting to procreate like that that's literally the biological meaning of life and it could potentially be the the spiritual meaning of life as well to procreate have kids and and for their next Generations and and raise these people and and see themselves in you and have yourself live through them and and through through future Generations I think I mean you know all life is trying to procreate and make more life like that is the purpose of life in a very strict sense and so I think that's you're going to get very very uh unhappy people when you do that and I think a lot of these people are unhappy they don't really realize just how important this is and and a lot of people you know they go around they think this is their party and they're doing this they're having fun and then all of a sudden they have a kid and they go like holy crap like I like my life was meaningless before this and now this is everything and I I don't even have kids and I still recognize that that phenomena on and other people I certainly saw in my you know my nieces and nephews you know I saw those kids I was just instantly I'm like I I need to be involved in these kids life like I just adore these kids you know I want to I want to help them and protect them and just be around them like that was just so important to me and um you know and then then talking about you know the Land Management yeah very interesting point about about the room and it's not coming to Australia I always sort of sort of Wonder like what it would be like maybe if they did have like herds of Buffalo and things like that it'd be a very interesting place and um but you know like to Simon's point when you do get people in to the land like it doesn't necessarily destroy it you know people can but like it's not in your best interest like there there is a profit incentive to actually make the land usable and fertile and and beneficial to not only themselves but to the environment I mean just think about Forest management you know in the areas where you have um you know forestry is is legal and you have these forestry roads out there and they they cut down trees in in certain ways and then they replant them and regrow them because there's a profit incentive they want those trees to grow back because they want to harvest them in the future it's just like grain except you know with you know a 30 to 50 year uh delay between your your Crop Productions and so they have to think very long term and and um you know and so in the areas that that don't allow that well you don't have these forestry roads you don't have things where being cleared up and separated out and all of a sudden you get forest fires you have all this big accumulation of you know Tinder and Fuel and no one can get to it because there are no roads to get in it's very difficult to manage those fires and actually you get you end up getting worse forest fires and getting it getting worse uh you can uh ecological disasters uh when you don't manage them and um you know so it's it's another example was you know people think of um you know like hunting and obviously well these animals are endangered obviously you can't hunt them like that's just evil that's what's made it made them endangered well no actually poaching made them endangered and the legal you know calling and mass destruction of these animals without any thought because the profit motive for them was just killing the animal getting getting like the Rhino horn or the elephant house however if you're hunting these animals and if as a farmer or a Rancher you know and you say like hey someone was willing to pay me 50 Grand you know to to hunt an elephant or or a line or something like that that incentivizes them to make a very safe environment for lions and elephants and then other you know Cape buffaloes and things like that and so in fact when when that happened and the profit incentive went to people you know doing that they actually went away from ranches they went away from farms and they actually went to Habitat for wild animals with with uh you know guards to protect against poachers and things like that so in fact you know the these endangered animals actually started making a recovery you know and so people people don't think uh of those sorts of things and you know that's why you know the Thomas Soules book that I really like um applied economics thinking past stage one it's a master class on how to think and just sort of thinking okay if you do this then what happens then what happens then what happens and just it's just working it down the line and you actually find they're like wow okay something very different different than what I what I thought was going to come come about happened yeah to your point about the the hunting Anthony it's like um you know poach of us Hunter poacher gets such a big return for just culling as much as they can initially and and then they get that one big payback and then they're out they don't care Hunter they're not going to go and kill the females for example because you need there to be enough population to repopulate because it's what you do that's your your land that's your sport that's your source of food so the incentive is to have you know something that goes on forever to the Next Generation you're actually building and creating something and that's where it's just such a crucial difference that that long-term incentive yeah all right Grace um I've got just a quick question here uh pram before you mentioned glyphosate and I've seen you posting stuff about glyphosate uh on Instagram and I really don't know anything about it I think it's some sort of chemical that's used in food production um can you can you explain please yeah uh it's probably the um the largest um uh pesticide or the the biggest pesticide delivered on our or used on our Foods it's primarily used in mono crops such as wheat and soy and corn which obviously make up 60 of the western world's Galleries and you know adding a few other plants that makes up a huge proportion of our calories probably up to 90 of the global Food calorie comes from plants and a lot of this is now used or grown in with chemical agriculture now glyphosate is a very interesting um compound it's uh fundamentally an antibiotic and a pesticide um now this this product comes from a company called Monsanto Monsanto are the same guys um Anthony mentioned the Vietnam War and Monsanto is the guys that have produced Asian orange yeah which was sprayed on the Viet Cong to basically to kill the foliage right to uncover these pockets of resistance by the US Army because obviously the Viacom work we're utilizing the that Shrubbery and the dense forest in Vietnam to kind of um to hide and and and to wage their War so this agent was employed with great effects um and it it's still causing birth defects it's not that's not debatable with you know you're getting kids born with severe mental retardation there is uh limb defects there's eye defects people born without eyes it's affected millions of lives even to this day um and that's the company that they are a drug company of course uh acquired uh to make their product uh Roundup or when they aborted Roundup was already part of monsanto's Armory but roundup's not too dissimilar chemically from a structure from Agent Orange it's a few chains different a few carbon chains are different I think and uh this this product is it's thought to be safe for us humans to consume um and that's the regulator is doing that like if you look up the Australian government website and glyphosis that'll tell you what it's safe to be consumed in food but the way glyphosate used it is used on plants and it's used on plants that are engineered to be resistant to it okay you can't just go and spray it on on a ancient species of wheat because you would kill it so you have to have Roundup Ready crop so that's genetically engineered seeds um made by Roundup by the company they sell the seeds so so these these uh things like wheat and corn and so forth these are Roundup Ready which just means that the Roundup can be used indiscriminately on them and it won't kill the native plant or that plant because um it's engineered not to not to die with it but the crazy thing about it is they use that and then eventually when it comes to actual harvesting they they use a method called desiccation which increases the um the Harvest the aware the Roundup is then sprayed again at a heavier dose where it dries the actual plant which makes it easier for the machines to go through and harvest the crop so that's a huge amount of Roundup being delivered on on these mono crops and as a result it's now detectable in 80 of Americans in their in their urinate you know it's they've got detectable levels of glass to say about 99 of the sample population in America I expect about 80 to 90 percent of Australians would test positive on those glyphosate uh test it's not great when you're pissing Roundup you know what I mean yeah it um it can't it can't be great for you now all that doesn't sound terrible because the Australian government said it's safe and you know and they're right the the the the the the human cells lack something called a shikamade pathway which glyphosate inhibits that's how it exhibits the herbicidal action but the problem Simon is 60 of the human gut microbiome is sensitive to glyphosate and that has not been studied that's simply not been studied I mean everyone wants great gut health pretty bloody hard to do where if we're counting down on a pesticide which ends up in our colon um affecting the gut microbiome because that's where the microbiome that their highest density now in our lower gut and I think you know I certainly maybe I can complain it's keeping me in a job because we've got a whole host of of the population with with gut issues and so forth but I think in 10 years or five to ten years hopefully we will discover that this was a major player in in disease and it's certainly been implicated a lot of cancers like Non-Hodgkin's lymphomas in Monsanto and Bayer have paid our billions already so there's something going on and um I I hope that as a gastroenterologist I can kind of advocate for the population and and say we should not be supporting these crops that are treated with it and we should be looking to to buy organic food stuff expensive of course um now the one of the Beauties with these um with the carnivore diet is animal products don't think that accumulate the glyphosate and I think and and I honestly believe um and on one of the big I'd get Anthony and probably Sean Baker at some point to comment on it perhaps that's one of the major mechanisms of the carnivore diet it's just it's it's just a pesticide free diet basically that contains all the essential amino acids and probably nutrients for life right and you know it gives you an adequate fuel source in the fat that contains most of these essential fats as well but in addition to that it just select that that pestathon level that a lot of our brains have now um and now gotten sadly our fruits and vegetables and berries and whatnot um have got as well so I think I think it's a major player and it's something that I look forward to exploring um in the years to come because there's a there's a lot that needs to be done with regards to it very interesting yeah I was just going to say yeah quickly yeah just to answer your your question on that and then just put my thoughts on it I think that is one of the main things with the carnivore diet is it's not only that meat is a very good source of nutrition and fatty acids and protein but it specifically eliminates out things that are harmful for us and that's and that's why you know I tell people that you know it's it's as important if not more important uh what not to eat as opposed to what to eat everyone's focused on what do I eat what do I eat I'm really focused on what don't you eat don't don't eat these things you know and pesticides Roundup and everything like that absolutely and then obviously you know I talk about the different you know defense chemicals that plants have as well and that and how they affect your body so I think that that is that is absolutely uh the fundamental point that I try to make uh in in advocating for a carnivore diet is that you are eliminating out things that cause direct harm to our bodies and you know so you're getting everything you need from meat and you're and you're eliminating out all the things that cause harm so yeah I think that's absolutely a major part because I mean I've eaten 980 90 of my calories have come from meat my whole life like that is that I've always really really liked that and so it's um you know and I still felt wildly better when I just eliminated out that last little bit of things and so you know it's um and then you know a lot of people will eat meat and they'll they'll eat a lot of meat and some people they're they're very overweight and they're very unhealthy and like oh I like meat I eat meat and they obviously blame it on the meat but um you know really even though you're eating a lot of meat that's healthy for you all these other things are are causing a serious amount of harm and you can't you can't run away from that you know it doesn't matter how much meat you eat if you're eating other things that cause harm you're going to get that harm absolutely absolutely I I couldn't agree more and one of the things Anthony to speak to that point about plant-based defense it's interesting when you've got a viable gut um when you've got a small intestine that's viable not least he doesn't have these horrible um you know physical spaces that have opened up we call it leaky gut of course and I think most people have heard of that when you've got a well-functioning gut it should be able to deal with a lot of these anti-nutrients and and plant-based chemicals but but the problem is we don't we've we've got guts that are just leaky and terrible and bad health so this is why I think the mechanism of a lot of things like lectins and gluten and and plant-based chemical comes into it there's no doubt about it for human beings throughout the course of history since the Advent of of the first primates that started to walk you know three and a half four million years ago we have always valued that that which is most nutrient dense and there is just simply no argument an animal called food you know well above anything else and and we've obviously been farming for the last 10 000 years we we picked up Little adaptations to that we've been able to increase our tolerance to things like starts and and and and and then so forth um and not just that but but to also break down um fat fats in plants to incorporate them into the medium chain um triglycerides which is essential pull up so we've picked up a few adaptations along the way so we're extremely adaptable problem is we can't adapt ourselves to this chemical shift storm that that corporate agriculture is um spewing on us and not only that they've kind of got Farmers addicted to this method of farming I mean you just have to look at Sri Lanka to see that that the the this which which was turn on them suddenly where they were farming in an inorganic way utilizing chemicals like glyphosate and whatnot and other pesticides when the political decision was made that they were going to become organic to improve their ESG score which is this crazy um a system that's a globalists have decided that that is what dictates um good quality governance when they decided to do that their crop yields when they went from pesticide-based farming to organic farming dropped by about 30 percent and and and it's just that Food Supplies this on such a tight thin streams that that was enough that if that country is a starvation from which they're probably not going to recover so organic farming can't be introduced suddenly right and which is what this madness worldwide around the governments where places like Canada and Netherlands are starting to suddenly introduce Organic farming or cutting down fertilizer and not getting emissions and so on and so forth that cannot be suddenly done it needs to be slowly transitioned probably a 10-year transition um where Farmers slowly Embrace that regenerative method and and this this that they're sort of you know that that's a slow ferocious so I mean we Face them very very interesting times ahead um and I'm not quite sure why the sudden decision to push people into organic farming I think politics yeah politics and to bring down carbon emissions and so on and so forth I don't think it's necessarily to um bring the rise of regenerative agriculture but we've got a good opportunity as a species to really kind of honestly careful on the planet um but we're going to have to utilize ruminants to be able to do it but but the madness in all this politics is is uh is blinding many and um and sadly that's got vast majority of the population brainwashed um to a point where they where they where they feel genuinely that not only will a state cause bowel cancer and heart disease it's probably destroying the planet I mean good luck being healthy with that sort of attitude yeah yeah oh sorry I was just going to say and so just just as a definitive Chop on that you know when everyone says you know red meat does cause bowel cancer and they always go back to that so you know that that red meat's hard to digest it's difficult it sits in your body and just rots there's putrification which can cause all sorts of you know nasty byproducts and and can be carcinogenic and it increases your uh you know rates of bowel cancer as well which I've heard many uh colorectal surgeons uh you know Parrot uh what are what are your your thoughts on that um it's absolute um you know let's put it this way okay let's put it this way if if you're a smoker Anthony your lifetime risk of lung cancer is is enormous I think it goes up something like 3 000 30 times 30 fold higher than someone who's not on who's not a smoker that's your that's your relative risk 30 times higher for three thousand percent is your relative risk now in someone who eats processed meat every day every day your lifetime risk is something like 5.3 out of 100 versus a vegetarian is 4.5 out of 100 that's their lifetime risk of bowel cancer so that increases your absolute Risk by about 1.18 which in relative risk works out to be 18 that's in someone who eats processed meat every day right versus a vegetarian now processed meat what good of food is that found in Burgers you know pizzas pizza yeah lot of pieces so it tells you something about the type of person eating it not only that the relative risk is extremely small and not only that I mean to make to top things off the World Health Organization lumped in red meat non-processed red meat a grass-fed finished steak as a probable carcinogen based on the data from processed meat I mean that to me if that is not a hit job on red meat I don't know what is and so it digs you know it honestly blows my mind that there are people out there suffering significant metabolic syndrome that will finish off a bowl of pasta or two bowls of pasta with no queries eat a bowl of ice cream and then sit there on the couch watching Netflix while finishing off a packet of pimpan but they won't do a steak because they think that's going to kill them I mean that just shows you how indoctrinated populations become yeah and that that they're they're overweight and sick because they don't have a chance to go to the gym or something that that's another one that's that's funny um that even even people in the you know a carnivore Community or keto they still think like oh but you have to work out all the time you have to do this or you just get fat and you'll get sick and that's the only thing you know staving off disease and and it's um uh you know it that that that's I don't I don't know why that one's gotten and I think that's probably from the 80s as well when everyone was getting you know they said that fat makes you fat fat gives you heart disease and everyone stop eating that and they start eating fruits and vegetables and they started getting fat and sick oh this is because we're not exercising and so maybe that's where it comes in but there's a there's a bit of a disconnect there as well you know that uh they they think that their diet isn't all that doesn't make that much of a difference and maybe they're they're eating they think they're eating healthy because they're not eating you know animal fats and things like that but they're always sick just because they don't they don't work out and that's the only difference in health is I work out more than those people do and I always I always love pointing out that like actually you probably work out more than I do like how often you work out like this element like that's three times more than I work out you know and it's just like and they just they just get pissed by that and um but some people actually look at that and just go like well they just don't believe me but uh other people will if they if they get it and they get that I'm serious though all of a sudden that's when they'll start thinking like hmm okay you know maybe maybe there is something to this yeah absolutely and I think I think you know good nutrition good hormonal Health good muscle um Health fundamentally drives you to exercise you're compelled to exercise you know what I mean you can't help but exercise so it's very difficult to exercise when your body is broken so I think the fundamental is basically nutrition you've got to fix nutrition that's 80 of it and exercise is maybe five percent um no sorry for 15 and probably sleep and things like that sleeps probably actually greater than that but get the nutrition right and generally things will fall into place you've got to get the nutrition right before you leap into the gym and and and so forth but that's my perspective on it yeah I totally agree yeah well if everybody's not working right like you said it's not going to perform very well when you're working out you're gonna you're gonna be pretty miserable and it won't be fun no it's not fun and and uh you know I I feel amazing when I'm when I'm working out at you know eating the way I do anyway I even think about that as you know when I was you know playing sports and get getting into the season and and I was out of shape and you know eating just a normal sort of you know kid diet or not not even sugar and all that crap because my parents never had that stuff in there but it was like it was like whole grains and actual meat and things like that there's always Whole Foods and so I got lucky there and I I just always gravitated to me but I would be you know out of shape and I would just feel rotten you know for like the first month or so of a of a sports season and uh and then you get into shape and you start feeling good and you start going and now you feel good and it's easier to work out and feel better so you know it's self-perpetuates uh itself but um now even if I don't work out or anything like that I can just hop right back in and I feel great every time I work out you know because my body's you know it's not is it as conditioned uh as it as I would like it to be but at the same time it works properly and so I feel good exercising and and like you say it makes you want to exercise because you feel good when you exercise you're mobilizing more energy when you burn energy it makes you feel better so why people take stimulants and drink coffee and things like that and uh or do you know do um pre-workout drinks and things like that because they feel better when they're burning more energy and so you know I go in there and I'm burning energy you know it makes me feel better as I'm working out it's not just like after I work out I'm like oh well I'm glad I work out it's like no like as I'm working out like I feel better as I'm working out and so I don't want to stop working out and so that that can be a problem as well because I'll go to the gym and I'll just I'll just be there for like three hours I don't want to go and it's just like I just I can't do that you know and so it's um yeah it's a very very different game uh when you're when you're fueling your body properly absolutely I mean we've seen people um Anthony flick and I'm sure you have as well look out of type 2 diabetes with no change to the exercise level some of these people are extremely sedentary just just utilizing fundamentally a low carbohydrate diet which we utilize which we Implement with our dietitians we nutrition is is everything it's at the heart of everything we just gotta gotta get it right I think and I don't think you know there's any reason but this is my pitch from my perspective I know you guys might have a different perspective on it I don't think there's a reason to even be full Carnival I mean that might be the optimal Spectrum but the people choose to incorporate other things that's fine just at least get the protein Target quality protein Target up to at least 30 percent um and I and I think people will find that things just click and fall into place at the moment people are woefully low I think their intake of protein or animal protein or even protein in general for Americans is about 10 to 12 which is woeful which is out absolutely wonderful so just basic steps I think need to be taken and people just need to kind of optimize it and you know they can still enjoy a various diet but but I think with the caveat that let's hope that it doesn't have glyphosate in it which I think is a big player yeah and like you're saying through the um you know in the American you know most most Western countries yeah they're getting sort of 10 12 of protein in their diet uh you know as as per you know uh you know caloric intake um and uh yeah the problem with that is a lot of stuff is plant proteins and um yeah and a lot of that's not going to be bioavailable I mean just just in wheat you know 80 of wheat proteins or gluten and gluten is not bioavailable like really at all like we really can't can't really break that down properly and and absorb it as uh as its uh constituent amino acids um and then so you know whatever that ten percent and then there's you know the difference between crude protein and um and actual protein or true proteins how they they measure uh protein in Plants they just say how much nut how many you know moles of nitrogen are in here that must be how many moles of protein are in here where in fact there are other non-protonaceous uh nitrogen sources in plants and so that that's that's a sort of population yeah well it's a miscalculation so you think that you're getting all this protein and first of all no you're not and second of all it's it's generally not uh bioavailable and then they have um you know protease Inhibitors in things like wheat and soy and many other plants that even if you're eating that you know like eating like a sandwich you know with you know wheat bread and uh you know you eat that with meat it's gonna block you know Proteus from your from your pancreas so you even the you know the bioavailable animal protein is all of a sudden not as bioavailable and so you know it's a lot worse than people think as well um and uh but I was I was uh uh it's always great to hear that you know you have nutritionist working for you because most nutritionists I I talk to they're they're just of the of the mindset of just like no no you gotta you gotta feed diabetics you know like you know bread and pasta and that's the best thing for them and uh how do you how do you find these these uh these nutritionists that actually you know think properly well it's you know it's I've always believed in that concept of social capital and Anthony and building out your tribes and that's what I've been good at and I'm not a particularly smart guy but what I'm good at is basically building relationships and and ultimately we've been able to build a phenomenal relationship with with Jessica certain who's our head dietitian lovely girl a lovely woman not to say and and very well researched and she's bought some other phenomenal members of the team you know we've got Tom Natasha Kieran Nikki we've we're growing so and I hope there's more dietitians that come on this journey with us because we can't do it without them we as doctors that I'm poor we're not trained specifically in the art of diet and nor do do I personally have the patience to go through a dietary plan with with people I think we need people trained to be able to deliver this message and I think there's legitimacy when it comes from a trained dietitian is accredited um so my philosophies we we've just got to keep building with the right people and um yeah I've certainly been lucky in in finding my team um and uh we're going to keep growing it yeah yeah you've got a great team Jess is fantastic um all right guys let's wrap there uh and let's do this again that was a lot of fun so pran thank you so much for for jumping on the show it was yeah it was great to chat to you brilliant lovely to see both of you guys again anyway yeah man good to see you as always