Myth Busting the Food Lies of the Past 60 Years with Brian Sanders!

welcome to the plant free MD podcast with Dr Anthony chafee where we discuss diet and nutrition and how this affects health and chronic disease and show you how you can use this to optimize your health and happiness both mentally and physically [Music] hey guys just want to take a second to thank our sponsor at carnivore bar I don't promote many products because honestly all you need to be healthy is to just eat meat for those times that you're out hiking road tripping or stuck at work and you want nutritious snack that is just meat fat and salt if you want it the carnivore bar is a great option so I like this product not because it's just pure meat but also because I want the carnivore Market to thrive as well and the more we support meat only products the more meat only products that will be available in the mainstream so if this sounds like something you'd like to get behind check it out using my discount code Anthony to get 10 off which also applies to subscriptions giving you 25 off total all right thanks guys all right everybody it's uh Dr Anthony chafee here today I have a special guest Brian Sanders who is uh the maker of the very anticipated movie food lies which is hopefully coming out in the next year um and here to talk about that and all of his experience researching that film and his life as well Brian thank you so much for coming on the show I really appreciate it thank you Dr Anthony yes good to be here trade episodes with you yeah yeah absolutely yeah I was on your show last week and I'm glad we were able to schedule this I really appreciate it um for people that don't uh uh know your work and and what you're doing can you tell us a little bit about yourself yeah well I started as a mechanical engineer it wasn't the normal path but uh I think that helped me not get indoctrinated by the medical system some would say most my doctor friends kind of say it was almost a hindrance to go through medical training it's a hindrance in the nutrition aspect right they learned all these great skills to do procedures and maybe prescribe medications but not for preventive health care so I know you're on your own path as well so um I yeah I had to kind of do it myself and it started with my experience with my family and I always tell the story of like when I turned 30 you just can't eat whatever you want anymore you're just kind of you know things catch up to you like I was eating this food pyramid diet essentially and but I was just getting a dad bod even though I was playing sports you know I was out there playing sports multiple times per week my whole life I still do I still out there playing beach volleyball basketball football whatever it catches up to you can't outrun the bad diet as they say and I was at the same time that I I lost both my parents which was crazy so I was around 30. lost both of my parents to these modern chronic diseases right and then yeah looking back I see that they just had undiagnosed pre-diabetes and then they they it was from Alzheimer's and cancer right so these are just modern lifestyle diseases that we think are normal in the U.S and Western countries or anywhere in the world now all these modern diseases are catching up to people so I was just kind of uh really taken aback I obviously I didn't want to fall the same fate as them and I took a look at nutrition and my diet and lifestyle and I I just realized it was all wrong like all those standard recommendations were wrong we were eating the food pyramid as I said we were not eating out this is we it was a big treat to go to a restaurant or to go to fast food like once in a while my parents were like Frugal you know they're not they're like we're gonna cook at home we were doing the lean chicken breast the broccoli the pasta the whole wheat bread we're doing it all we're we were very good I'm telling you and they just got sicker each year and so that sent me on my path and I eventually started making this film food lies about five and a half years ago and have been around the world and talked to many many experts and trying to put it all together well it's you know it's something that I think uh um you know everyone in this space has been really anticipating you know because you know you see sort of like you know teasers and Snippets and things like that of your work and like you're interviewing this person going to this place and it's like man it looks cool and uh and and it also you know just we really need this sort of thing we have we have to get you know the the the well-made documentaries out on mainstream platforms showing just what a lump of bull this all was and and and the you know the story behind it and and history going back and then speaking to people who actually say well no actually like that's that you know the the the the common conception of what's going on is actually completely completely false and a misconception so um tell us a bit about the the movies I mean you've been working on this for five and a half years that's a very involved project so obviously you've got a ton of material on this are you are you sort of at that point where you have so much material you don't even know what you're going to keep in and what you're going to have to cut at this point it's a long process it's been Rewritten probably five times it's good that it took this long because if I put out something say four years ago I don't think it have been very good I don't think it would you know maybe it would have gone to Amazon Prime and you know a few hundred thousand people might have seen it and then it would have disappeared I think like it takes this long to refine a message to learn more to you know interview new people new people pop up along the way right and my ideas changed along the way and so uh yeah it's been really good that it's taken this long it's helped it gets the next level I've gotten people involved that are bringing it to the next level and you're absolutely right it needs to be like to get it to the masses you have to have an A plus an A or a plus right if you just have like a B plus it's not going to go anywhere I've seen many films I've watched all the films out there and there's some decent films that cover some of these topics right there's there's a whole number of them that are just kind of low budget and they didn't really go anywhere I'm like I can't just make another lower budget film that people didn't see and these are I'm not talking about sacred cow because that's actually like a high budget nicer film but that still one didn't really take off it didn't get to Netflix right like Diana Rogers and Rob wolf are on Joe Rogan's podcast talking about it this is sacred cow you know this is a major operation that didn't get on Netflix they're saying they couldn't get on Netflix for whatever reason so uh yeah we're trying to make go all out and if anyone wants to see what we're talking about go to the food lies YouTube channel and watch the intro it's three and a half minutes we put it together from scratch handmade almost every shot and this is the level of detail we're going into and uh to the question about the footage yeah I mean we had to reshoot a lot of footage even we when my new guy my new director editor stepped in he looked at the old footage like now let's redo it let's get it better so we're still kind of getting a last few people and we're gonna you know get like the highest quality best interviews if if we have to redo it we'll redo it you know like we're flying to people just to get you know this one interview with this one amazing doctor or paleoanthropologist and we're just gonna do it and it's gonna be that good awesome yeah you were saying uh when we were chatting at uh ketocon this year that you flew out to uh Hawaii to interview my buddy uh pranaganathan uh Dr uh gastroenterologist nepotologist over in Sydney was a great guy and a very very knowledgeable and someone who has has sort of seen through the you know the uh you know the the you know got the wool off his eyes and seeing through this this and you know he's very successful uh you know you know doctor and and he you know curtailed his own practice and his own ability to make money by going off off the mainstream because you know procedures pay the bills really in medicine and and you know he's trying to actually heal people uh with with diet and lifestyle so that they don't need the procedures in the first place you know which I think is the only ethical thing to do you know if you're going to um you know push something that you know is incorrect just so that you can make a buck obviously that's an evil thing to do and uh obviously and and so it was great that he had that uh Integrity to look at this and go nope this is wrong it doesn't matter if it cost me like it's wrong we got to do it right so uh yeah so that's that's uh great to getting to interview all these guys um can you tell us a bit about about the movie and and what you're trying to cover and and the the arguments you're making yeah yeah we're trying to do the most comprehensive not only the most comprehensive film the highest quality film and let's see if I can make it sound even better no we're we're doing a lot so that's why it turned into a six-part series so we are starting with the evolutionary story right and and when you came on my show you did a great job of laying out the I don't know 50 reasons 100 reasons we are made to eat meat you know if you get into all the details it's it's countless and we talked about Mickey bendor's study and and he they list all these reasons why we are high-level trophic carnivals carnivores so we are kind of doing that in the film The First episode the first half the about it's about 15 minutes on every single reason why meat and animal foods are so important to our lives Stevens and how we became human and we go into the stomach acidity and we go into the stable nitrogen Isotopes we go into the teeth like why did our you know all these things are laid out with amazing Graphics to go along with it so this is what we do every week we have a standing meeting with our professional graphic artists and we go over each graphic right and so there's like 40 Graphics that we had to make by hand that based on studies that so first we have to find the studies first we have to write you know write the scripts tell the story edit it together get all the studies make the graphics and perfect them to show all these things because to a lay audience they don't know any of this stuff they're not out there digging up papers from Mickey Bender no one knows who Mickey Bender is you know no one knows what a stable nitrogen isotope is like we have to do this we have this Avatar that we're making the film for called Joe Cheeto right so we just picture this guy Joe chido you know he's in Ohio he's he's overweight he's like doesn't know anything about his health he's got he's on the few medications and he's sitting there eating chips watching this and by the end he's gonna get it he's gonna be like wait a second I need to completely make a change my doctor doesn't know what they're talking about telling me to eat less meat and to eat whole grains and all that stuff and that's who I made this film for and it's not easy to do that right so we have to get yeah tell so many stories in such a a simple way to explain that and we have to start with Evolution so then I mean we could go through the the film I mean if you want to stop and talk about each each section but that that the story of animal Foods throughout our history is where we have to start and no other film really goes and does that yeah you know it's a perfect place to start yeah I did I didn't know it was it was actually six parts what are the other five well they're not perfectly lined up per episode but yeah the next part is about where we went wrong I guess the next main section is called we're going wrong which is the Agricultural Revolution so then we go through okay what happened about 12 000 years ago when we started eating grains because I get so much pushback I'm out here for the past five and a half years if not longer eight nine years since I've been changed my diet talking to people about this and learning what the criticisms are you know and they'll say hey but well we've been eating grains for 12 000 years and it was so beneficial to society and they have no idea I'm like you realize I've interviewed like Dr Bill Schindler who's like studied this stuff he's a Paleo anthropology uh Professor now and he's looked at the two skeletal remains of the pre-agricultural society and post Agriculture and it's they're completely different these skeletons are remains of of anyone who who started eating all these grains they're shorter their brains are smaller they're less robust they have more disease that you can see like even lesions on the bones of all the disease so you have to you know we have to tell this whole story right we have to go through a whole history lesson of well what happened back then what what changes like people talk about Egyptians Egyptians were relied on grains and they were the first to sign of all these um diseases and they had heart disease and especially like the queen like Queen had soot I think it's how you say your name she had access to all the richest foods and had tons of like disease basically she had all the modern chronic diseases so people don't understand that it wasn't all all good I mean it fed more people right we grains allow us to form society and feed more people but it took a it's like that's when nutrition took a back seat to filling bellies like that's kind of one of our lines of the film it's just yeah we got more calories but since then we've we've been on decline as a species yeah well and yeah it's a it's a good point with the Egyptians as well that's something that that a lot of people don't know is that we've done these stable isotope studies with Egyptian mummies as well and when we found different pharaohs that had atherosclerosis the theory was that well these these were Rich wealthy people that could afford you know fatty meat and so that's why they had they had cholesterol and heart disease problems but when you look at the mummies of just the you know normal people and and they're like that's just how they were buried Back Then There Were Millions upon millions of these out there the normal people had it as well the guys had gynecomastia and pot bellies and they did the stable isotope uh um examinations on these people and they found oh actually no they were eating the same thing so you know the pharaohs and the royalty we're eating the same thing as a common people and they were all getting the same diseases so that sort of throws that out the window with actual hard evidence you know it was a supposition that oh well I'm sure they were rich and that's that's why because they could afford meat and meat as bad as everyone knows but in fact it was the opposite um you know you mentioned the civilizations and cities and that is something that's been uh you know put forward by many many you know brilliant historians uh in the past but I can think of you know a you know a few serious examples of where that actually doesn't hold uh hold true that you you have to have agriculture in order to have you know cities and a big civilization uh I think most apt is uh the Native Americans uh in North America before you know you know diseases from Europe came in and sort of wiped out like 95 of the population in North America in the early 1600s right before the you know the pilgrims landed on Plymouth Rock they were estimated about 100 million Native Americans all around all across the country and and they you know subsisted on on meat you know they did like the Buffalo drops you know grew a herds of Buffalo over cliff and they would make pemmican out of out of the meat and and they would live on that for the rest of the year and when people started moving Westward because you really couldn't expand West when things were so heavily populated we were in these little colonies and that and that's where people stayed because there wasn't there wasn't any more room to go now all of a sudden they're like okay where is everybody and they started exploring off and explore off it was just you know it was pretty Eerie you know everything was it was abandoned but they made it to you know uh whereas now St Louis and there was actually a city there there were houses and long houses and permanent constructions there that were estimated to be able to house one million people full-time full-time residents so I mean that's that that's the capacity of ancient Rome one million people you know or or a modern city now and and these were pure carnivores and the other example would be you know Genghis Khan and the Mongol horde the largest contiguous Empire that has ever existed and they were carnivores you know they ate horse meat drank horse blood you know fermented horse milk as well they they ruled all of Asia and most of you well most of Asia and most of Europe massive massive thing so the only only Empire that's ever eclipsed uh them for you know land mass would be the British Empire but that was a naval Empire they had spots all over all over the world this was one big chunk that they managed and it was all on Carnivore and so they had cities you know maybe I don't know how many they built on their own but they sure sacked them and took them over and then ruled them and um and they were carnivores you know so I don't um I don't even know if that's if that argument is true it obviously gave some sort of advantage or probably wouldn't have happened but at the same time gave a lot of disadvantages and we can certainly see examples where people actually you know were able to set up cities and establish you know large countries uh just on Carnivore so it can be done oh yeah well there's also Gobekli Tepe which they've now found that's 12 000 years old and yeah we didn't have agriculture similarly we were just eating so I mean we must have been eating animals and whatnot and that they have this whole amazing site with like large megalithic structures and complex carvings and all that and oh yeah I want to go back two quick things because you're talking about the the mummies and I meant by riches and they they could afford the good diets that usually meant throughout history that they could afford sugar and like and like pastry basically pastries right that's that's the point I was making too is that they had access to anything especially you think about Kings people say Oh Henry uh was it Henry the eighth was he the fat guy yeah yeah uh he he wasn't like he was eating yes he was eating meat and stuff but he was also just getting the most expensive items were sugar and pastries and these high-end delicious foods so yes it's definitely blaming it on that and yeah so to go through the the Agricultural Revolution there there's also the story that Jessica Thompson who's a Yale kind of mainstream archaeologist she she did a pronunciation called fat of the land there's something about how humans ate so much fat back in the day and really this this is a complex story to tell it's not all about Just Grains being good for populations what they're best for is accumulation of wealth so I think that that's part of it is that it was when we first kind of went from this more egalitarian society to just having pharaohs and all the people that could to gather all the wealth storing the grains so it wasn't necessarily good for people it was good for a few people that kind of ruled Society but to get back to Jessica Thompson she kind of tells the story of there used to be giant megafauna around and part of the story is why we we were kind of forced into agriculture because we didn't have all these large fatty animals that we had for so long we had to rely on smaller animals that had less fat and so we had to make up those calories so maybe in certain places where we weren't you know I don't know good enough we didn't develop enough Technologies to to hunt and get tons of animals it was just about making up those calories there's so many things it's convenient also grains it's once we figured them out it's kind of um just like an easy way to get calories that humans like the taste of right it's it's kind of like just tasty for a lot of people to eat just bread yeah and um yeah and and you know I mean I think any farmer is going to balk at saying you know like that that's an easy life but you know compared to like going out roaming and fighting and killing and risking your life you know day in and day out and you know roaming around and you know out in the wilderness when you've got lions and bears and all these sorts of things uh you know staying on one spot and just keeping your and having your food grow around you it's not a bad deal you know that's not a bad gig at all um that was that was another thing as well like of civilizations you know that had uh on Carnivore as well um you know I talk about um I might have mentioned this when we spoke on on your podcast but there's a story I like from Herodotus the uh you know the father of History who chronicled the meeting between uh the Emissary uh an emissary from Persia and um and Ethiopia there's the king of Ethiopia and so the king of Ethiopia asked the guy from Persia I was like okay what do you guys eat and how long do people live and you know the Persian you know explain grains and how they make bread and said that you know our people who normally live around 70 years and the king of Ethiopia sort of laughed at him and said well no wonder you live such short lives if all you eat is dirt you know our people you know we only eat boiled meat and we only drink the milk of our of our livestock and we would live 120 years sometimes more and so that this is a the country this is a this is a nation and with a city and a king and all that and they were carnivores you know and um you know people think that's far-fetched that you know they um we said I'll live 120 years he's just bragging maybe he was but we actually know as geneticists that we're actually you know supposed to live that long and so and he sort of nailed it on the head so yeah that's just another example um but yeah you're right you know a lot you know throughout history you generally see people eating plants out of necessity you know they they don't have enough meat and so they have to fill fill that Gap as you say with with grains and rice and and uh and then tubers or whatever the hell they have available and then spices were um you know to cover up the taste of rotting meat because they didn't have refrigeration this was a way to preserve meat and keep it because it was it was so important and everyone and people knew that and so you had to had to spice these things up so that's sort of this this sort of slow encroachment of of plants but you know no one really argued that these were better for you you know they were arguing that this is a necessity and you need to do this but you know we you know we've known since you know before the Romans I'm sure that you know night sage will kill you you just don't you don't eat nightshades and then a few hundred years ago some bright spot said oh hey look these guys are eating nightshades but they're eating in this particular way let's try it out but now we've forgot about that we forgot that you blanched the tomato and take off the peel you remove seeds and you only eat Vine ripened ones you know and that's less toxic and you know like there's the folk wisdom that green tomatoes are poisonous go oh that's just that's just an old wives tale it's it's true you know because they have way more toxins in there I mean poison to the sense that you eat one green tomato you're gonna die no but it's bad for you it's not good you know alcohol is poison it doesn't kill you in one drink you know it takes a while but it's you know it's gonna mess you up before that that's a huge point that we try to make in the film and what I've learned along the way with guys like Dr Bill Schindler who I mentioned it's a paleoanthropologist he's experimental archaeologist but he's also a food scientist and he travels around the world and that's his main shtick he's like hey we used to eat all kinds of things that you know he knows he's all about eating nosotail animal Foods he's like we became human because we started hunting getting first access to animal getting all the fat getting all the blood getting the organs getting everything all those calories and great source of fat and protein and but he's so now he's into going around the world and seeing all these complex preparation methods that these people had and that we've lost so there's a story from every plant food and he'll tell you of how we've lost nutritional preparation techniques and now we're getting all those anti-nutrients bread is a huge story it used to be slow fermented sourdough that would get out a lot of these anti-nutrients no one does that anymore there's no time they're out to make money money they do fake sourdough they just put in a bit of sour flavoring it's so bogus if you go to any sourdough in the store it has it's I think it's uh it's citric acid it's some sort of like ingredient that just makes it taste sour it's not fermented it's just bogus just bad bread there's even with Africa so I I went to Africa for this film a year and a half ago and we saw the corn story so now Africa is infiltrated by sacks of cornmeal basically just to give them calories and they have to live on this stuff when they call it ugali they make like a paste out of it you just add water if you're poor all you have is water and the cornmeal and you get this paste and they have to survive on this stuff well people did use corn in South America but they would do these complex preparation techniques and they would nishtamalize it and they use like lime to to get out all of the anti-nutrients because there's anti-nutrients corn that block the vitamin what is it B1 B1 is Diamond they also it blocks uh some of these other B vitamins because it has these anti-nutrients in it so they you know some like the Mayans and some of these civilizations figured out how to subsist on these sort of low quality foods with the preparation techniques but then that stops and now people around the world aren't doing that and especially in Africa they're just surviving on these bags of of just just yeah food that's like slowly killing them that's another thing is we didn't just decide it's not like we figured everything out that we knew that if we made this switch into the fallback Foods into these plant foods that it was gonna harm us because it's a it's like he said it's a slow poison so it was kind of just this long experiment and then some people did figure out that huh these you know this guy's not thriving or like this woman couldn't have kids and she was eating you know all this stuff but just on a mass level we we really didn't learn our lesson yeah like that's and that's a funny thing too is that you know they had all these these fermentation techniques and the actual fermented sour dough and and it was still bad and we still see in fossil record how it rotted teeth and stunted growth and uh and now we're like we're not and we're not even doing it it's not even that good you know something else like yeah that's a good point yeah um and uh you know like another one is like you know cassava uh cassava is like the third most important um calorie Source in the third world and it will just kill you if you don't prepare it right because it has like a ton of sign there's two different kinds of cassava the one there's one that will just kill you on the spot the other one just makes you very sick but they're both bad and you know you need enough of the of the you know less poisonous one will still kill you and so yeah you're right I mean you have to prepare these things and this is something that's been traditionally known for a very very long time and now people are just denying the existence of that entire field of science called botany and it's like I'm sorry you know no this is this is established facts you know there's tens of thousands of toxins in there they're cataloged and uh and and you know named and cataloged and and they're in books you can just read them you know and you know people when they're saying like oh it means so bad for you it's just like look there are books containing thousands upon thousands of poisons of known poisons in plants of of the plants we eat specifically name one toxin in meat just one one you know they'll start with cholesterol but obviously cholesterol that's a that's a bogus argument they have nothing else they have no oh this epidemiological study showed a you know slight increase in this thing name one chemical in meat that is toxic yeah you know and and show the evidence of why it's toxic you know that's it and it's a hard pill to swallow though like we're talking about all this stuff we know what people listening probably are tuned into a lot but try to tell this to a mass audience right because they're just used to saying plants are magical that that the more plants need the healthier you are and I try to shake up people's heads because again I talk to everyone about I'm an Uber I'm talking to the person I'm in the airplane talking to the person next to me I get all the stories all the dumb responses all that right and it's so hard to get through because we're fighting back against I don't know like 70 years of just terrible science and just wrong information and so man it's you got to do it very carefully to try to let people in on this like hey there are anti-nutrients in plants and that like plants where fallback Foods you know basically we yes we had to eat them sometimes but it's not like yeah it's not like it's gonna kill you like you said and also in a small amount if you have plants I I'm like 80 85 animal Foods like I mean maybe I will be better if I just go 100 you were kind of convincing me on our show last week but uh I I I'm of the the thought that hey if we get all of this good nutrition from animal foods and we prepare some of these certain low anti-nutrient plant foods that we that we can be okay and I think that's what people did is they kind of knew that they're like yes animal foods are our number one source of nutrition and they just knew that inherently and and Weston Price is a great uh I love him he went around the world a hundred years ago and found all this stuff out so he this is where um I kind of left off with the where we went wrong story The agriculture story to jump back in it's kind of coming together here uh he went around the world 100 years ago and he kind of proved all the stuff that we're talking about just from this observation of the world's healthiest people he went to the the tribes or not tribes that he went to the native living people that didn't live in in the modern ways there's a few this was in the 1930s there's a few people that still lived on their ancestral diets and he went to Australia he went to Micronesia he went to the Swiss Alps he went to Africa he went everywhere and these people all had the same Traditions especially around pregnancy because they knew this is what I'm saying humans are smart we didn't have you know airplanes like we were smart in different ways we had to figure out how to survive how to grow a healthy baby how to you know produce healthy Offspring and they all were eating animal foods and they were eating raw milk and fat and eggs and liver and organ meats and anything just in any animal food Seafood even whatever they had available from that part of the world where he went they were eating animal foods with the most nutrient-dense source of all the vitamins and minerals and protein and yeah I mean it just proves that how important they were and how humans could figure this stuff out but I guess to my other side they he did western price also did observe them eating the plant foods but they would go through Great Lengths to prepare them properly so that they could extract the most nutrition out of them and it just didn't kill them so then you'd kind of get to okay well is it Thrive or survive you know from there like maybe they would have been even better if they didn't try to prepare these certain plant Foods yeah and that's the funny thing too is that you know there's people like Western price and Jade Salisbury and stefanson and a ton of others you know and then voglin you know wrote a book called Stone Age diet 1975 and he's a gastroenterologist arguing for a carnivore diet to treat modern diseases all the way up as far as 1975 and then you know 1977 the USDA says the cholesterol causes heart disease and 100 years of scientific literature medical journals and and books and well-researched books um just thrown out the window just completely thrown out the window and and and just no one even knows about these things anymore I was never taught about these things I had to find these things out on my own I just sort of look around and scour and I found that you know that there's so much you know bull out there that you know I'll say okay well what else did we know and I started like looking through like old uh you know Jama um uh or articles from like the 1950s and they were they were just going nuts on long cholesterol like you know saying this is this is this is a idea you know this is based on bad science there's like hardly any evidence and he's like these studies they're hanging their hat on they're crap and here's why and you know this was a hotly debated subject you know because it was you know it went counter to thousands of years of of actual medical literature you know not just not just folklore and and uh you know uh Hokum but like but I actual documented by scientists and doctors you know go and you know people can get things wrong of course you know but you know there's plenty of examples of that but you know you have to you have to sort of think about that I mean there's this this weight behind tradition you know that I mean some people just think you know Traditions are Antiquated and maybe some of them are but you know Traditions arise you know usually based on need and they're carried on they stand the test of time as it were it's like hey this this works this works for people and this it provides an advantage and so you know you you should think about that we've only been doing this whole low-fat high carb and sugar crap for 40 years as it's just destroyed us you know whereas like we had we did the opposite before that for thousands of years and that was people were saying hey this works this works so you know I think that um I think that's pretty telling as well it is that that's a good story for one a quick aside with the tradition even I I use a CGM these companies will send me a CGM continues glucose monitor I kind of figured out there's a there's a tradition for a reason if you eat like some some like vinegar apple cider vinegar like a salad you eat a meal of protein and fat and then you have a dessert that like that's sort of the standard thing that people did you know it's like this is the order you eat and this is that actually helps you lower your blood sugar it's like eating the apple cider vinegar beforehand eating the protein fat before you eat say a carb or sugar and it's just interesting that even though we did you know just eat all these things we figured out how to eat them in a healthier way so that's just interesting how humans work and how we have these traditions and uh back to the 50s so we we kind of get did just transition into the next part of the film which is all the bad science that's been done and people don't know this that it it wasn't like a slam dunk with a cholesterol thing yeah I'm glad you brought that up because people just like okay yeah we did this happen then we got Ansel Keys came in and well that's part of the story actually is Ansel Keys came in and then did the spurious correlations and showed you know seven countries study and you know basically throughout all the other countries that didn't match because there was 22 countries and saturated fat did not correlate with heart disease in a meaningful way at all and there's that whole story but they didn't people don't know how debated this was because for all of history we knew that animal Foods were healthy and then you do have this this crazy was a McGovern committee right that I don't want to get into this whole story but you know there's the Eisenhower had a heart attack and uh they they were like what's what's going on with all his heart disease it was the same time everyone's smoking in elevators people are smoking in their car there's like you know they're we're getting all these vegetable oils and crisco that that are coming into our diet in a huge way processed foods are coming into our diet in a huge way and people wonder why oh they're also just drinking think of Mad Men you're like Mad Men was like you know I guess a decade later but this is what's going on they're drinking at lunch they're smoking every two seconds and we wonder why heart disease was becoming you know a big problem so anyway they they go they go to this this crazy committee we tell the story in detail they even have a guy Nick modern who's a vegetarian he was like an intern or something he was this random kind of intern guy that was a vegetarian they had him write up this whole uh Bill basically to not bill but just report to show to try to show that that meat was harmful and uh basically throw out thousands of years of just knowledge that me was healthy so there was another guy John Yadkin who was against Ansel keys right and he looked around the world and what he he was a British guy so what he saw is whenever this British Empire came in they would bring in Sugar flour and oil right these are the three like cheapest most shelf stable most processed foods this is also what western price sells whenever these three ingredients came in the health declined and so Yadkin was like hey this is when we get heart disease when these cultures start eating these three ingredients this basically displaces so many good calories so much good nutrition with this empty calories and and what even does harm to you metabolically and yeah basically answer keys one uh you could you could say like if there was more behind it or if they there was some sort of forces that wanted him to win in a in a sense and like you know why didn't we have this idea and you can get into all kinds of other stuff into the way things are pushed and uh in the medical system and um that kind of thing but man it was not just like a simple scientific thing and now it's great that we're kind of going back on all that science and debunking it yeah it was funny to um because people don't think about that either you know that Eisenhower story you know there were headlines in newspapers saying what is this new heart disease you know we'd all been eating meat and smoking and drinking I mean like you said you know people were smoking a lot they were smoking a lot more they were drinking a lot more you think like the 20s you know the Roaring 20s everyone smoked everyone drank you know 1800s I mean this was just this is just a normal thing you know to I mean smoking was so prevalent then in America tobacco was was used as currency for a time and so you know this is this was a very regular thing we did not have the heart disease that we have now you know and we had the smoking and obviously smoking does contribute you know uh to uh well the evidence is very strong in that in that in that regard you know there's something like a 3 000 increased correlation between smoking and heart disease you know but we don't actually have causative studies it's just this very very strong correlation so it's 30 times more likely to develop heart disease if you smoke and so that's a that's a pretty damn strong correlation uh but it's still not causation but it's likely that there are causative mechanisms there and and yet when people were eating more naturally you know they weren't they weren't getting as much heart disease you know it's so amazing how like what changed the most this is so the meat didn't change the most smoking and drinking did start coming up a lot but did a disease didn't follow immediately because you could still be protected if you're eating a good diet and people were all thin and healthy and you know what really changed the most was these just influx of processed foods and it's the sugar flour in the oil like that's what changed the most and it's so easy to know that that's the only thing that really changed at when this disease started to come about we actually have eaten Less meat since then right I've looked up all this stuff and people probably know this who are listening that we did do what the nutrition guidelines said especially since 1980 well it's like meat and fat and milk and eggs consumption have all gone down chicken I should have said red meat red meat consumption's gone down chicken which they told us was supposed to be good for us went up whole grains went up all these things went up we did do what we were told and we've gotten worse and I'm I'm just telling you if you look you you can do all the science and understand why this is true and that why I mean it's how they all that that's great I know there's all the science out there but you can just look from the highest level and just like okay what changed and it really is these three ingredients that just took over our diet and that's I mean I don't see how it can be something else yeah well I and I totally agree with you you know that that's something that I think is is probably one of the one of the you know more damning pieces of evidence is the fact that we listen to their stupid advice and you know the health of the world changed you know I mean you know in after you know the night you know 1980 in America we reduced our our cholesterol and fat intake by 30 reduced red meat by around 33 and increase fruits and vegetables by 30 and 40 respectively you know and Grains and sugar as well and what were the results you know BC rate tripled heart disease tripled stroke rate triple cancer rate triple type 2 diabetes increased by six-fold autoimmune diseases went Sky High uh you know Alzheimer's Parkinson's autism these things all went up exponentially they almost didn't exist before then now they're the only things we treat and they all increased at the exact same time right and and you're just just focusing on on heart disease you know if we're saying that that increased cholesterol causes heart disease well then a reduction in cholesterol will necessarily show a reduction in heart disease but it tripled okay so you can't say that a causes B if you reduce A and B triples if anything you can say that a is protective against B and in fact it is you know all the all the studies you know massive studies hundreds of thousands of people collectively after usually after after 2015 there's a ton of them that came out now in 2015 time them came out as well showing that not only is there no correlation even between cholesterol saturated fat and heart disease but they're found in inverse correlation between these phenomena so the more cholesterol you had the more saturated fat you're eating the less heart disease you had the less Strokes you had so you know that's you know you can't prove causation with correlation but if you show that there's no causation that proves there is no correlation and that is actually what the data shows on the cholesterol thing I tried to explain that to people and I also try to do in the film is it the worst thing is to reverse cause a reverse correlation so that's basically what you're saying to recap it's if your idea is that this is causing something and that goes down that does a lot more to disprove that that was the that was a problem right so it's hard because causation never equals correlation I mean it doesn't necessarily equal correlation right you could show two things we can't know that correlation is causation but what you can know is the opposite it goes a long way to disprove your ideas so that's definitely what happened and there's so many good news studies coming out each year another reason why I'm glad the film is kind of taking a while there was the the five studies in the annals of internal medicine completely exonerating red beat that's just said there's no evidence to show that red meat is harmful there's just new studies every few months that come out that are helping to support all the stuff we're talking about yeah there was this one that came out um with uh Ben bickman and oh gosh who else was it oh and uh and Paul Mason um Sydney who I really I haven't I've been I've met the guy but I really like his uh his videos very interesting goat dude and uh and I've spoken to Professor Dickman as well also a very interesting dude and they and there was with a third gentleman that I I forget the name at the moment but they published a study recently or you know uh more of a paper making an argument with supporting evidence that if you're on a ketogenic diet at least that you don't need statins and you don't need cholesterol control and they and they showed the evidence for that and all the different studies showing this as well and they just they're just making that case and so these are these are being published by you know uh by Major professors at major universities and you know well-established doctors and clinicians and scientists and being published in you know top peer-reviewed journals and and so I I'm really excited for for how things are coming along you know I I was looking at this sort of five years ago and you know no one was talking about this stuff I mean there's a couple people you know and um but not but really really not all that many you know Baker I think was the loudest voice and um but you know I just see I was like I like the truth will out I mean this is just there's so much evidence here it's just people don't know about it and so like this will get out there and I was thinking like this is going to be this is going to get started hitting mainstream sort of in the next you know you know a couple years ago I thought you know probably in the next five years this was going to be mainstream and I think that's definitely keeping that on track it is the problem is you kind of see this the the opposite agenda is reaching all-time highs though so it's like as this evidence is getting out there is a small contingency of people that are just good scientists that are saying hey we were wrong and then what they do is they put twice the effort into pushing plant-based meat into the climate change or you know they're trying to get people to eat less meat because the climate they pulling out all the stops right they have the Playbook of like okay if we can't do it for health reasons we'll do it for climate reasons if you can't do it for climate reasons they'll resort to ethical reasons or they'll just package all three together which is what vegans do and yeah I mean I hope this film gets out on Netflix people are telling me hey maybe Netflix is too woke to put your film up there because we're going against all these narratives but you know what I did hear very recently is they have a new CEO or something some new person in charge at Netflix that's saying if you are biased and you have these kind of woke ideas I don't want to categorize them all as well I don't know if that kind of makes sense if you have these ideas that you're trying to you know suppress information and that you have this sort of ideology around things you can leave like we are not here for you show you the door and we're not doing that here anymore so that's amazing news all right well I might keep my Netflix subscription there yeah yeah some of the content it's like oh man I can't handle this like I've turned so many things off even just the mainstream movies and they're just pushing a narrative and you're like this is so obvious yeah like I can't do this I just turn it off yeah and it's also like a lot of these things like they're not necessary to the plot you know Game of Thrones did that you know it's just like you know it's just like I've read the books you know there were not as many dongs in that book in this movie and like you know it's just like why is it that you every now we're painting this picture we're doing this scene and all of a sudden there's just some dude with his with his stuff hanging out just walking across and it's just like a close-up on his ass I'm like I don't need to see that I'm sorry I don't need to see that you know I just I just never in my life would I even if that was something that I'd be interested in like this does not add to the story it would be I've seen movies where that was actually part of the plot and that actually played into it I didn't mind at all I didn't care I was just like this is gratuitous you know and um and that and that's sort of the problem I have with this stuff is it's gratuitous you know they're trying to push something and it's you know it is not necessary to push it like who who are you fighting like no no one's no one's I I just I have not heard people say that just like gay people like no one cares no one cares I don't care you know it's just like you know but they they just want to want to keep fighting now that they know there's no one to fight against there's so much even like they try to normalize things like even Westworld you know westworld's a big mainstream show this new season I'm trying to watch it they just have people in Mass on in the background I'm like why are these people in Mass like it has nothing to do with anything and and just like every like 10th person has like a black mask on and they're just walking around outside with a mask on they're robots robots aren't getting together it's just so wild how okay we got to get off this topic oh man no I I don't want to go down this rabbit hole it's just super annoying but okay here okay here's the topic I was thinking about last night it's kind of goes into all the stuff we're talking about the biggest problem what or what I see happening with older people so older people follow this all this advice and these are the people I'm telling to I was in LA this weekend talking to older parents my friend's parents get third stent in his heart right just not listen you know doesn't want to change they're set in their ways they believe that oatmeal is healthy they believe you have to eat the more fruits and vegetables they eat the healthier they get they have all these things what does that do to people it basically replaces muscle with fat so this sarcopenic obesity right so this means you have low muscle mass and high fat Mass you don't even have to look obese and you can have sarcopenic obesity really this is another thing we're trying to break up with the film is that you can look normal quote normal which is changing right they're normalizing dad bods now so you can look like okay well this guy looks like an average like 60 year old and he has like a 34 inch waist so he he's like got super skinny arms and legs his belly's like protruding but he just looks normal but it's like if you put him in a dexa scan you would see that all his muscle is turning into fat so this is just okay this is going to come around this is what I what it was going on every single old person I've ever seen is melting away their muscle is melting and it's being replaced by a fat and they look kind of normal and this is the opposite of what people look like in Africa and what old people who are healthy look like in our modern worlds you don't have to use your muscles at all you have the wrong information and you keep just eating the wrong foods which inherently just does this to your body right if you're eating this low amount of protein and nutrients and you're getting a high amount of fats or carbs or whatever any type of energy this is what your body turns into right if you just feed it the wrong basically ratio of nutrients to energy which is new protein would be included in those nutrients and you're not demanding anything from your body right so people wonder oh what the blue zones these people supposedly live longer or these people in Africa they're they're still healthy I always hang out with a lady who's 105. she was dancing around jumping around jumping up and down 105. she's out there using her muscles you know and I just want to try to get this across to people in the western worlds that it's how big a problem this is like that is metabolic Mayhem and bickman actually does talk a lot about this to mention bickman again you know he's out there on social media talking about the stuff Dr Ted Naaman all these people are just pointing this out but it's not getting to the masses and I just see it and it's so sad to see these people wither away and have you heard of Dr Sean O'Mara he's on Instagram a bit he's he's not like a well-known person he does these MRI scans of people and he not only sees their visceral fat so if you get in the MRI you can see a cross section you can see all the visceral fat they have so they can look like their normal weight they're filled with visual fat but he'll also look at their thighs and other muscles and you can see the difference between an older person who is strong and and you can see the muscle mass and their bone mass is bigger their muscle mass is bigger and then you look at someone else who's eating the wrong foods and more sedentary and their muscle is not even there it's just pure fat it's it's amazing to see this so I guess the point is especially in Hawaii so I'm from Hawaii I see all these older people walking around they look thin they look fine but they if you take their shirt off and you know there's a lot of beaches in Hawaii you can see these guys men women they emaciated low muscle mass sarcopene basically fat visceral fat belly fat they have like the little Pooch right there's a million Asian dudes with a pooch belly skinny arms and legs and then we're like hey why is why are they getting sick these guys like eating low cholesterol diet he's eating all the right things why is he having a stroke why does he have heart disease why is Alzheimer's dementia this is the problem if you have low muscle mass and a high visceral fat you can look normal and have all these diseases India and China they do have the most people in the world but they also have the most type 2 diabetes in the world they're leading the way in type 2 diabetes at pretty low body weights right and it's just like people can't figure it out the mainstream can't figure it out this is why I think there is this fat acceptance movement or all this all this bogus stuff in the mainstream that makes no sense is because or they're saying oh diets don't work look at these people they're skinny yet they're still getting disease like they're not skinny they're sarcopenic they have sarcopenic obesity basically you can have all these problems and look semi-normal so that's my rant I'm sure you agree with this 100 and it's a good rant you know it's a very good point you know on on that note you know you you're saying that you went to Africa and you saw these people living traditionally and how they lived you're saying that you you visited like the Messiah and the hadza and even like the pygmies which I didn't even know they were still had pygmies around that's pretty cool like how how was that trip what did you see oh wow so much so much yeah the piggies were at the end they're in Uganda so they're being pushed out of their Forest so it's it's the craziest story this is how Human Society Works governments just control people and ruin people's lives and push them out and try to make money and this is the same story in Tanzania as Uganda as the rest of the world in Uganda the pygmies are pushed out of the forest so that the government can make money off the mountain gorillas right so it costs like 800 to see the mountain gorillas and they so they push the pygmies out of the forest where they where they live traditionally so that they could sell 800 packages to the mountain gorillas say in Tanzania they have all the animals in the for the game reserves right you have the ningorogo crater it's all it's amazing so many animals it's like the The Lion King you know where it's just a million animals and everyone's living together and the hadza they they have to hunt like little bush babies there's no more animals left for them to hunt they're being pushed off their land they have no good land to hunt on and people wonder then you have guys like uh Herman ponzer who studies the Hot Stuff riding all these papers about how they eat so many plant foods and they eat such a high fiber diet like for one they're not and I'll tell you what and two they have nothing left to eat so of course they're gonna have to non some tubers to try to get a few calories and they're you know grabbing like a few leaves and berries if they can find them what they want is animals what they've always hunted is these giant animals this evening go back to Jessica Thompson stuff we used to have gigantic fatty animals Mega fauna we had sloths that were like 40 feet tall we had giant make you know people know mastodons woolly mammoth all this stuff gone then we went down to smaller animals now the odds are that the the third stage where they almost have no animals and they have like a little bush baby which is the size of like a softball basically and they're out there trying to eat those things and we got two of them when we were out like one day we went hunting they got two little bush babies the other day they got this tiny little uh tick tick like a little deer thing that was you know the size of two footballs and then one day they got a gorilla or not sorry not a girl uh orangutan oh okay our um Yeah so basically they're eating primates which is not good gnarly yeah uh I I chose not to eat the primates yeah but I did eat the tick tick and I and I did eat some of the liver in the brain of that little tick tick but okay but you see the trend here these people are pushed after land this has happened American Indians everywhere around the world this happens and their nutrition suffers great in their health completely declines very quickly and so the yes the pygmies same thing the lady who was 105 she said she grew up in the forest eating meat three times a day she was we had a great translator that kind of grew up in the area she said I would be able to eat meat three times a day we would capture pigs in the forest they had little traps they showed us how to make they were just she said now we get meat twice a year on Christmas and Easter it's the only time they can afford meat it's so sad they're they're out there on this tiny little strip of land some of these kids their like job was to break rocks into smaller rocks that was like what they were doing on the side of the road to like I guess make gravel you know like it was crazy there was a kid eating a corn stock not a piece of corn not a corn cob he was eating the stock because that's all they had was just it was just chopping the stock and like sucking on the stock same to get back to the hadza yeah the hadza were eating some tubers they weren't eating the fiber they they since yes the women do stay home and while the men go hunt and they were baking tubers and they would gnaw on these tubers and then they would spit out the fiber and I was given some and you know for one it's covered in dirt and everything's dirty it's like they have a great microbiome over there yeah because you're just eating whatever you know you're just doing it so uh I think that's why they have you know people like the Hermann Ponce type crowd from Harvard like to say how how the fiber is why they have such good microbiome like I don't think so I think they were they gave me a piece of liver that was on a knife that was never been washed once obviously they're not washing their hands everything was grubby there was yellow intestine stuff on it when I ate it uh but yeah these tubers nothing it tasted like you're getting like a few maybe like two grams of just glucose out of it and then it's just turned is just pulp and you they just spit out the pulp it's like they're not actually eating the fiber they're getting a few grams of glucose to stay alive and then they spit it out so yeah that that that's that's um some of the story with Africa they basically with the the Hudson they all they care about is me all they care about is getting animals the men just sit around all day either cooking meat or talking about their next hunt or going on the next hunt and the um to skip to the Messiah I don't know if we're running out time here but the Messiah are the people that drink blood and milk and eat meat and so we learned a little bit more about that we did that with them which was amazing it tasted fine you know they they did it for us we went in their little pen they had all their animals they found like a good one they rotate animals some people think that this is like harmful or that kills an animal not at all they keep these animals alive that's part of the point of drinking the milk and blood is it's a renewable resource so we did that with them they hit the artery you know it goes into the gourd they get the milk and the gourd they mix it around you drink it so it's kind of fun because we were there as tourists but they were there just to get breakfast you know what I mean like they weren't putting on a show for us it wasn't like when you go to Hawaii and they do a fake luau it was like this was like their breakfast they were and they were like kind of pushing us out of the way they're like all right my turn like I need to eat yeah so I can like leave the day and uh one little thing we learned is they actually kind of rotate so they do three days of blood and milk and then they kind of do like three days of meat right they they would Slaughter like a goat every so often so it's like they they just have ideas that you're not supposed to mix them for whatever reason I think you know they just sort of basically just go back and forth okay yeah it's interesting so so they they go for like the artery in the neck and then like how do they stop the bleeding at that point uh yeah they have a little arrow that's like mini bow and arrow with a very short tip that just cracks it and it opens it up and it spurts out and then they have mud all it is is mud so they just grab Bud from the ground and like mash it into it and it just stops and it's good they figure it out and the cow's fine it you know it heals up and then then they won't come back around to that one until you know a few weeks later yeah I wouldn't recommend that people do that by the way they're smearing mud into their open wound yeah it might might not go too well but yeah you know you see you see animals in a while you know they get some big gash and they're walking around in muds and swamps and things like that and their body body fights and stuff up you know so something to be said for your immune system when it actually is functioning properly um I had a thought you know we were saying about the haza you know how they're being driven off their land they're being forced really to eat very small game when normally they want to get larger game and they're sort of forced to eat the tubers and things I you know I you know they also you know eat like honey and things like that and it seems to be uh obviously you know people like honey honey tastes good but um that someone should be a bit of a of an anomaly in that um not that people wouldn't eat honey if they had it but um but that's something that's been sort of argued that like oh well maybe maybe we should eat honey because the hats eat honey but from what what you're saying they're not exactly living as they traditionally would is that have you seen something about that like it was is honey a newer addition now that they're sort of more nutrient star corset I don't know I think it could be they have to rely on it more but I because they they need calories but I also don't think any human would turn down honey but then it goes back to what we talked about on my show is people do all kinds of things it doesn't mean it's like the best for longevity I'm not saying either way I I would love to to know that honey is part of the human diet uh so I'm not saying either way but they they did they the men didn't seem to be interested in anything but meat and honey right and then and why wouldn't you I mean if you can find honey it's delicious like I get it and and but then again I I don't know they're not being like oh man I want to live to 140. like I shouldn't eat this honey or maybe they could if they didn't eat that I have no idea but they're there yeah they would find that they would just find it they'd go out on the Hunts and then they they're like oh that's a you know you could see The Baobab and it had a certain look to it and you could see where the that they were and they they brought acts with them and then they could make a fire in like two seconds with you know whatever little uh method and they would smoke out the bees chop open thing reach in there with their hands grab the honeycomb and eat it yeah nice that's um yeah I think there was only there was there was um something Dr Baker mentioned I forget the the study but it basically looked at the hats uh and it appeared if like mostly the men ate the honey because they sort of found it when they were out on a hunt and then they would just sort of eat it on the spot they didn't bring it back for like the you know the people in Village like Women's and Children um but um they found that like the the dental decay in the man was actually much more advanced than in the women as well and so that might be you know an indication that that that of that difference so obviously I mean sugar is going to rot your teeth but you know is the argument that you know in the in the Matrix of Honey somehow fructose does not act as fructose in your body which I think is is you know uh you need some backing you know like uh because I don't know why it wouldn't you know I'm sure Honey's better for you I mean it is going to be better for you than table sugar but that doesn't mean that fructose stops being fructose you know um but yeah and and you're right you know I mean sometimes you know people do things because like you know they need to and it's not necessarily you know the best thing for them but that's what they found they need to do and you know in their situation there uh you know they're being sort of you know driven out of their traditional uh land and and uh and and ways of hunting and living so you know like go good for them you know they're doing what they need to do to survive you know well and they're the men they're out there running for eight hours straight they're not running yeah they either walk or they Sprint I mean they're out like we had to turn back at a certain point it was crazy like they just kept going and we're like all right we're out we have no more water too but yeah I mean yeah some Honey's fine if you're out there on an eight-hour hunt yeah have some honey you know like I don't think that I think their body can can handle that yeah and also oh think about the women when we were with this the second group that was like kind of farther away from society even more the there was like a bunch of women they had the most amazing teeth I've ever seen there is a girl who maybe was like 15 17 something just all like it was like a tooth model this this girl lived in a grass Hut like she actually lived on the dirt in a grass Hut obviously no clue what a dentist is like complete tooth model like no no one's teeth are this good in America I've ever seen that weren't fake yeah why jaw fully developed you know arches and Palette it's amazing yeah that's awesome and and you know perfectly in line with what you know Weston Price found you know the people that were living traditionally you know they had perfectly developed teeth and jaws and pallets there was a study from the tour who's like the curator for the dental museum at Harvard back in the 1920s and he sent you know this this polar Explorer up well you know uh with instructions while he was going up on this um you know sort of uh Mission up up north um it's like you know the um whatever big ass Bay up there and um Hudson Bay probably and um you know to like take molds of of the the native of the local Inuits who were living traditionally on meat and they came back and they were like perfectly cast like all of them just perfect perfect perfect and you said and his conclusion was like you know this is this is fully in support of being able to not only you know survive but thrive on a meat-only diet you know these people's teeth are perfectly developed and you know and he was saying that he'd only seen in his entire career had maybe seen you know 10 Perfect Teeth and all of these were perfect you know hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds so it's uh you know it is you know it's been in the literature you know this has been this has been data that's been collected for hundreds of years some of it for thousands of years and you know and yet you know you know one group of studies well positioned and well paid for you know all of a sudden just just blows that out of the water and just people just forgot you know because they were you know it's very easy you know it's just indoctrination you're just you just start with with younger Generations this is what it is is what it is is what it is and everyone grows well everyone knows that everyone knows that and you know everyone knew the Earth was flat too how'd that one work out I know so yeah it's uh it's a bit crazy but um that's really cool though that you were you were able to go to Africa was that specifically to do with the film or was that just for your own personal research oh no that was for the film I brought over my director editor we went with a woman Mary ruddick who's kind of trying to retrace the steps of Western price and kind of blue zones too she's kind of debunking the blue zones along the way and uh yeah yeah it was it was all for the film we got some great footage too bad there's so much to cover it's hard to cover this all but actually here's another little quick one that's interesting for the that we're trying to include in the film the the Maasai are known to be super tall super healthy right the same thing like amazing teeth just they're like six two on average just healthiest people alive they're the ones doing the blood the milk the meat there was a group called The agikuyu Who are were near the Messiah so same environment but they for whatever reason went vegetarian I I don't remember the story for so for multiple Generations vegetarian they were on average like six to eight inches shorter than the Maasai had worse and had worse Health it's just such a good comparison there's many of these comparisons actually to talk about Native American there's like different groups of people that people looked at and they lived in the same area right you have to look at the same area and the people who were doing the traditional way of living and they were either you know the hunting and Gathering compared to the people that settled down and and farmed like we saw this in North America I don't remember what year but they could they could find they had the remains of these different populations completely different health right the people that remained hunter-gatherers in the same area with the same axis of foods but chose to eat the animal Foods instead of just growing grains completely different Health profile different bone structure different diseases it's crazy there was um I was I was watching a talk by Dr Steve Finney I don't know if you've come across him he's he's really good yeah sure Bullock Finney and Bullock are kind of Legends yeah yeah and um and he was talking about I forget the name of the tribe but it was a Native American tribe and they um had these these paintings that were made of them in the 1800s but it's very you know you know famous painter at the time and he he painted a very very tall strong proportion people with big heads big ass brains and um and they're saying that actually these people were like oh they're all like six seven six eight you know and they were like well how can that be you know these guys heads are huge I got six foot seven it's gonna be like a beach ball you know but that's but that's what it was and you know and even um uh they had they had um they had them come out to meet uh Thomas Jefferson when he was president and you know and Jefferson who was like six two six three something like that you know said to these guys like these guys were tall as hell you know and it's like this is documented these guys were massive massive guys like yeah all like six seven six eight and um you know and these were all they were all living traditionally and and uh just eating meat I even you know you think well you know genetics says that and the other Native Americans now like I don't think the average height of Native Americans is all that high I don't know if it's much higher than than the average you know American it might even be uh less I certainly don't think it's yes I think it would be too and um you know and then that's something I learned when I was a kid was that when eating a western diet Native Americans were four times as likely to get all the diseases like heart disease diabetes cancer Etc you know I remember thinking at the time like well doesn't that mean the food is causing the disease you know because if they don't eat the food they don't get the disease and we eat the food and we get the disease we just get a lower rate you know and what's up what's a western diet compared to a non-western diet what what are they eating that we're not and vice versa and you know the the answer was it was just meat you know even in my own genetic line you know my five I'm like six three um my brother 6'4 my younger brother who was a very picky eater didn't like eating meat just liked eating white rice with tempura sauce dudes 510 you know like in the same year uh like we wrestled uh growing up but he was four years younger than me so he came up after when we were the same age you look back he was always like 50 60 pounds lighter than me before he would wrestle at like 50 or 60 pound lighter weight class than I would and like I think like in his senior year he wrestled like 148 like I was I was 215 220. you know like it was it was just a very big difference and our father is six foot four his brother's six foot five the other six foot seven and their dad was like again six foot four and his brothers were like pushing seven foot like these these dudes were storks just big ass white dudes you know played basketball there's five brothers they all played basketball together and they all like you know uh knew each other and grew up playing basketball together so apparently like they were just they just killed it whenever they played together and also they were just monsters you know so that's in my damn genetic line you know so I feel that I I got severely ripped off by not getting uh you know I mean we always had meat but it was it was always lean and it was always in the company of of carbs and vegetables and we had to eat our damn vegetables and um you know so I feel that I got a bit ripped off I think if like you know my mom was carnivore during pregnancy and breastfeeding and I was just eating meat I'd probably be like another six inches tall or 50 pounds heavier and just be just out there just killing it you know on it on any field I think this is such a big story and I I brought it up to you when you came on my show that there's a couple studies about this they're worldwide studies there's one that they looked at 105 studies and the correlation of male height and then they did an updated version this is grass Burger this is the guy's last name from Norway's Sweden somewhere up there and they have a new one with 152 countries and they looked at males and females and the height correlated to health it was so amazing how height correlates to health and that height also directly correlated with animal protein they call it quality protein intake and it was just so linear like you look at these graphs it's just a straight line up and to the right it's like as the animal protein goes up their height goes up their health goes up it's it's like the most perfect correlation the R value it was like touching the line right the line the average line the trend line was like the each dot it was amazing I would just and then they also did it into a study or sorry into a graphic of the world and you saw this whole world and it was color coded and as you went away from the equator the hell the height went up and the amount of animal protein went up and people know this you're up like the Vikings these are the people eating the most meat tallest people and then the people around the Equator very short relying on rice and plants and stuff and so yeah this is what we're discussing last time like why did this happen is it like why is is it epigenetic do can the genetics actually change and just Trend people into shorter populations or is it just that it's basically just malnutrition that is just causing it and you said that yes people in China they could have short parents and then maybe if they're eating enough animal foods and get the right nutrition that they could all of a sudden pop up to six seven six two whatever even despite having searched parents super interesting yeah and I mean you know I think I think given time you could certainly change you know population you know well I mean look at the pygmies you know I mean that but that's something that's going to take tens of thousands hundreds of thousands of years you know it's not going to be 12. it's just not you know that that's just not enough time to really do much of anything you know if we if you look at our genetics overall as Homo sapiens it's not changed too much in the last 300 000 years there are changes but it's it's not that much and so these things take a long time I mean it took a hundred thousand years for a grizzly bear to split to become a polar bear you know they're not that different you know one's got white fur and it's a little bigger you know eats more meat you know and uh you know probably bigger because of that as well and and then that's really it you know 100 000 years it took you know so it's um you know while you're going to have some changes in 12 000 years like it's not it's not going to be that dramatic you know I don't think and certainly in in you know the last two generations it's not just going to change that fast and people talk about that with I talked to a couple of vets that I you know I don't you know I think that uh this is just what they sort of taught in vet school and they just haven't really thought about it too much we can just forgive them their ignorance but you know the average life expectancy of dogs has gone Dr has basically halved since the 1970s when we started incorporating packaged dog foods and I've spoken to a lot of vets who will say oh well that's because of these breeders they're just you know these hyper you know these puppy mills just just pulling these things out it's like really because I thought golden retrievers were a pure breed already you know yeah I mean what what changed you know that like like how how did how did just breeding a lot of the same genetic stock all of a sudden half their life expectancy and made it so they got diseases like diabetes heart disease and cancer you know dogs shouldn't get cancer you know animals in the zoo don't get cancer animals in the wild as far as we know really don't get cancer and so you know humans getting cancer dogs and cats getting cancer that is abnormal you know people getting Alzheimer's that is very abnormal you know and so you know we people you know like oh well you know maybe when they start displaying signs of senility in the wild that's when they get picked off great what about the zoo no one's getting picked off at the zoo you know you'll see like you know like zebras like you know just in a state of of mental incapacity um you know what and you'll think about think about you know pregnancy you know how women get extremely sick you know horrible morning sickness vomiting swelling you know they they just they can have a really hard time that is the most abnormal thing that I think I've ever seen where does that exist in the wild I mean we've all seen nature videos we see a pregnant lioness tracking down a pregnant gazelle both of them hauling ass and fighting for their life you know not just walking around it's like oh my ankles are swollen Murray's slow down you know it's just like no he's like that that is a recipe for death in the wild you know it's not going to happen so why is that you know if you're just puking and vomiting and just wretching all day for months you're not gonna make it you're not gonna make it and so you know that is that is that serious serious flaw and so I think that is is a direct result of eating the wrong thing and our bodies are going to be much more sensitive to harmful toxins when we're pregnant because we're like you're trying to kill this baby get it out you know I mean it's like alcohol poisoning like no that's it we're done get all this out of here because you're gonna die you know you're gonna kill yourself with this poison we need to get this poison out of here and you know I think that's that's probably what's going on with morning sickness is that you know they'll they'll do that the only caveat being some people get meat sensitivities and they hate the smell of meat and things like that but that is weird quite rare and I'm I'm very curious to see what will happen if they just listen to that because when you eat too much meat and I I get sick of it and I physically don't want to eat it so I think of that as like okay I think you're just not hungry and you don't really know what that feels like and your body's telling you hey stop eating and if you just stopped eating that day it would probably taste good the next day or the day after but that's just a theory anyway well I saw this firsthand in Africa and Mary I guess I was with us she's she's you know all into Women's Health and helps she's amazing nutrition um just I think one of the smartest nutrition people I don't know what it's called practitioners in the world she asked all of these ladies everywhere we went we had the cameras and we had Mary do you have problems with pregnancy do you have any of the stuff you're talking about they said no no what are you talking about no everything every group that would yes you're 100 right this is not normal at all and I've seen it around town as well I'm in Austin I have a lot of friends that eat very well they're eating animal-based diets through their pregnancy zero problems they're like absolutely change they had a previous pregnancy eating standard American diet it was a nightmare new pregnancy animal-based diet amazing this stuff is solid yeah good I'm glad that's being borne out and certainly what you know I see with with people that I know doing carnivore pregnancies you know which is proof of concept right there I mean you cannot grow an entire life without you know if you're eating a a deficient diet this is why you know vegans and vegetarians miscarriage rate is way higher than the norm you know with birth defects and and uh and you know developmental issues are way higher in vegans and vegetarian uh parents um you know to the point that you hear these very sad stories um you know personal stories of of friends of mine since the vegans or like you say you know there's been this this this overwhelming push and surge of veganism and vegetarianism plant-based eating over the last few years with the Resurgence of this of this information and knowledge that meat is actually our optimal uh nutrition source and I've known a few people that have had pregnancies that did not turn out well they were trying for years to get pregnant they finally did and unfortunately they had to terminate the pregnancy because on ultrasound they're like this baby is really sick this baby is not developing properly this baby has a completely misformed heart and it's going it's not compatible with Life you know like it'll have to be having it'll be in open heart surgery the day it's born it'll probably die if it survives it won't survive for long you know and and so they terminated this pregnancy that they really really wanted have been trying for years to have which is absolutely heartbreaking it's just devastating and you know to me I'm like like the answer is just you know staring everyone in the face but you know to them they don't they don't know what's happening you know because it's just like well obviously I'm eating right I'm healthy I'm doing all these sorts of things and and they they couldn't be further from the truth it's very very sad to see yeah that that's I think oh man it's so sad that that's what it's come to is that I kind of mentioned this early people give up on diets in general people say the fat acceptance movement that I'm just doomed to be fat all the stuff you're talking about is because we have our nutrition so wrong that of course you're gonna give up and throw your hands in the air if you're dueling supposedly all the right things and you're still being you're still sick you still have excess fat you still can't be pregnant it's so sad it's so sad and the only way to do it to fight it is to make a film I don't know yeah I don't know what else to do make a six-part series like you gotta like change the opinions of the world because it's just getting worse the way we're going yeah well I completely agree with you you know I was thinking this as well you know a few years ago was like this is this is something that you know needs to be done it needs to be made especially when the stupid ass things like what the health we're coming out that that hit job um I was looking at that I was just like no no no we need something on our side that actually paints a picture because they are very very very convincing you know you get something in a documentary form people think documentary science documentary something foundational you know uh information you know because that's what don't want you know you know nerds watch documentaries and then documentaries are so educational in this maybe some of them some of them were pure propaganda and um but you know but they carry a lot of weight and so I think that that getting on on a major platform is um is very important have you been negotiating uh with with different platforms on on where this is going to go well we're not there yet we have two distribution companies that are wanting to represent us that get these get things on Netflix all the time so yeah yeah so I I'm not worried about that and we're just need to make the best film possible and if anyone watches the intro on my food Lodge YouTube channel they'll know that it is the highest quality possible and then someone's gonna take I think there's gonna be a bidding war yeah well I I I wouldn't doubt that because I think this is you know this is a very unique uh film you know uh of its own and like you know there's been other ones you mentioned sacred cow I really liked um uh fat a documentary by Vinnie torterich you know we have people like Gary Taub and Nina Thai Schultz and um you know I thought I thought that did a great job uh as well and yeah you did two of those and then you know beyond impossible which just shows the corruption in the food industry and you know the big push for this this chemical slop and how this is really not a good idea and uh and I think that that um has probably helped the discussion immensely because you know people are you know seeing through the of the of the uh impossible burger and all that sort of stuff and the stocks are dropping off and everything like that which is just just great to see you know you you knew it was going to happen yeah anyway but like it was um you know it's always nice to see that that come true it's always nice to be right I don't know exactly I still I'm not tired of that yeah well people no people are smart people know nutrition inherently they know that's bad I loved all this stuff like Terry covid and there was all this all the meat was gone and the impossible stuff stayed like all the fake meat was still in the store I love those memes it made me so happy because like people know they're like they're desperate for food they're still not buying that trash I took pictures of my own I went around I was at Costco there was mountains of that stuff left and everything else was gone like it was crazy that's funny yeah I think um I think Costco was the only store capable of not getting bought out of toilet paper foreign people were just just going nuts on that even there's um you keep hearing these uh stories about when when things open back up there's like there's like people that are trying to like return like hundreds of packages of toilet paper to the store they're like yeah I want to return all this they're like absolutely not like get out of here you're like you're the idiot who like screwed it up for everyone else you know now you just gotta live with a toilet paper for the rest of your life for the next three generations you know I mean like I I think I think like um you know one thing of Costco you know the last person like two years or something oh yeah it should yeah and um yeah but uh yeah I think they even had like a limit when they here in Perth they had um they open up Costco like right at the height of all that craziness and um and so they had like just normal Costco put a 48 roll thing and then you know limited you know one they actually like I said like now you can't take more than that but you didn't need more than that I mean that was like that filled up your damn shopping cart you know and so it would have been just a bit a bit insane if someone was doing more than that I don't like how much how often these people like I mean seriously like how much toilet paper do you actually need yeah I think if you're on this like standard American Plant you know focused diet and Grains I I think you got problems man yeah yeah you're going six times a day I played rugby with a guy who was talking about how I was like oh yeah no no it's healthier the more you go the healthier it is like you know I you know I I you know take a dump like six times a day I was like six times a day like how do you have time to do anything else you know you're just you're just crapping and wiping and cleaning yourself well I'm like Jesus that sounds awful you know like I was I was very meat based I never I really didn't eat much else um even when I wasn't thinking in this way and I um [Music] thank you