Is Ketosis Harmful To You? Here's The Evidence | PFMD 149

hey everyone uh Dr Anthony chaffy and Richard Smith here just letting you know we just did a video in response to a recent interview with Georgie dinkov on Dr mola's website where he talks about how uh there could actually be dangers with a ketogenic diet and some of the studies that suggest this to be the case so uh Richard and I have just made our response to this video um and uh just you know there's certainly you know data and studies that that maybe show that there could be a problem with being a long-term ketosis however there are other examples of studies that show counter to that so we just wanted to go through some of the literature with you guys and just let you know our thoughts on the subject the reason that we've decided to do this this uh this podcast this recording is in response to a recent uh post or YouTube video podcast whatever you want to call it done by um Dr MCCA um and the is a surprising reason why you may need carbs in your diet which uh you and I have both looked at and um yeah we we just wanted to sort of break this down bit by bit I guess isn't it and and uh issue our response if you like in regards to this because um so I'll just read out the story um at a glance so it basically says a keto a ketogenic diet can be very useful initially when transitioning uh people who are metabolically inflex ible which I agree with however continuing cont Tois longterm can lead to problems including stubb stubborn weight gain and the inability to lose unwanted weight which I completely disagree with um I mean first and foremost yourself and I have been ketogenic uh in the metabolic cetosis for quite some time um I don't have any problem losing weight um I think your body F percentage I don't have any weight to lose no exactly you know so well that's stubborn it's very stubborn that I that I can't lose any more weight because I don't have any more weight to lose so I guess I guess you know he's right in that weird sense yeah well my body F percentage is between 8 and % currently I love my food I eat like a horse um and I don't have any I I struggle to gain fat I struggle to gain fat so I and we can go into all this as we go along as well but um let's move on to to the the second point at the story at a glance um the reason for this uh can be to do with cortisol which yeah I I agree cortisol can be an issue your body needs glucose and when deprived for too long your body will release cortisol to stimulate the production of glucose by your liver cortisol also promotes inflammation central obesity so uh you don't want chronically elevated cortisone levels then goes on to say your metabolic rate is strongly affected by the type of sugar you consume high fructose corn syrup promotes ill health while whole fruit raw honey and pure organic cane sugar are readily metabolized without promoting weight gain and then when adding in more carbs you'll also need to reduce fat intake to avoid uh elevating your triglycerides and restricting dietary fat and or blocking the oxidation of fat inside the cell has strong therapeutic effect against cancers by forcing sells out of its excess fatty acid oxidation state now some of the points in there I agree with to a degree um but let's pick up on the first point so I mean it equals on to elevated cortisol levels leads to central obesity um which I agree with um and we know it does uh just for example while weight loss is the typical response when going on a ketogen diet months later maintain that weight loss becomes a struggle uh and once uh once uh d off um started the diet or or rap petza recommendations he lost the weight and kept it off um and he goes on to say my my take is that it's an endocrine problem which I agree with it is an endocrine problem um but I completely disagree with the fact that living a ketogenic lifestyle for a long term um would have detrimental impacts in regards to ctis all levels uh what are your thoughts I just want to take a second to thank our sponsor at 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people that say well there's this marginal increase and it and in the studies that show an increase and most of these are in animal studies in mice they're preclinical they're not in humans some are in humans but most are in mice or rats and they show a marginal increase at most in cortisol after long term ketosis they they look at this as well in kids who are on ketogenic diets for epilepsy as well and yes there's a marginal increase in in cortisol but it's marginal it's quite marginal and the thing is is that there there's actually a lot of people that pait that that marginal increase is is actually a Readjustment back to physi ological levels that your cortisol is actually being suppressed this is part of metabolic syndrome that's a known consequence of metabolic syndrome is suppressed cortisol and so they think this is actually a a a rationalization of that cortisol so well how can we look at that how well yes you know if you have if you have cortisol that's too high you can get what's called Cushing syndrome or cushingoid syndrome and you know there there's variations within that that you can put on weight Central osity you'll get peripheral um wasting and and proximal muscle weakness stria loose you know sort of weak connective tissue a lot of a lot of things it's actually quite damaging it's a you know it's it's a cortical steroid so you know if you're getting you know steroid injections and things like that is that you can't do that long term it's that's quite harmful and this is one of the consequences of that you are never going to get levels like that on a ketogenic diet certainly not a carnivore diet and so you know how do we how do we know this right so your your levels marginally go up and there's actually plenty of studies that show that they don't go up at all and and and that there there are long-term keto studies over two years in humans showing that this is actually provides physiological benefit people keep losing weight they keep the weight off and they actually ameliorate the symptoms of hypercortisolemia right so whatever the cortivazol is the symptoms and and you know Sol Soliloquy of um of hyper cormia actually goes away so you can't say that this is causing a problem of high cortisol when actually the problems of high cortisol are being resolved with ketogenic diets so it's not really you know it it just doesn't really fit it doesn't follow that this is that this is the problem they're making it out to be and you know living proof right so it doesn't matter what studies say right because because studies can be flawed they're they're just they're trying to glean information from reality but you can just look at reality and you can see and say hey there are a lot of people doing a ketogenic diet a meaton diet their entire civilizations the entire the entire population of humanity that were living in in the ice ages you know in the uh you know in in like the you know North and South south of the Equator where there were no plants to eat at all there was no honey and fruit ever and you know when there was fruits and and so forth available is very very rares for a week out of the year two weeks out of the year and they were very tart they weren't very sweet this is a very different plant that we're eating now so their entire civilizations going back millions of years that never ate carbs and we're always in this so-called ketogenic starvation State and the stress State it's not a stress State that's our that's our primary metabolic State that's the primary metabolic state of nearly every animal on earth carnivores because they just eat meat they don't eat carbs so so lions are just dying of of Cushings I guess you know they they look out of shape you know big fat guts and everything like that you know weak muscles and hair falling out things like that and then uh you know but but same with herbivores right because they don't they don't eat they don't consume fiber and then break that down into glucose and absorb the glucose they eat the fiber they bacteria eat the eat the fiber and produce fat and protein so cows eat grass but they absorb fat and protein so they're in a ketogenic starvation State stress State and their cortisol is going to be higher than cows that don't do that maybe but who cares that's what they're supposed to do that's the physiological state they're supposed to be in just like us yeah for sure it um I mean you know looking at this he says that maintaining that weight loss becomes a struggle um I I completely disagree with that I've know coming back to I've been living this way for 11 years 10 11 years um I found that over time I became gradually leaner and leaner when I was competing every time that I actively tried to lose weight uh in order to compete I became considerably leaner uh every time to the point where my body fat percentage was somewhere between 1 to 2% when I was on stage which is unhealthy you know that's incredibly unhealthy but it was fit for purpose um now I don't have TR I don't have trouble losing losing body fat not that I've got an awful lot to lose you know as you rightly say but I mean you know looking at this the weight loss becomes a struggle I think there are a number of factors to look at in regards to this is that well what type of ketogenic diet was he following um was it a dirty ketogenic lifestyle uh is he eating too much too many plants is he consuming too much um I mean what I find with the cleans that I work with is that they are eating what's deemed to be a standard ketogenic lifestyle which is 70 to 80 odd per of calories that come from fat um with lots of green vegetables and and things that contain lectins and as we know these lectins will bind to insulin receptors they'll signal the body to store five times more fat people eat um you know when you take away certain foods that they are eating they'll gravitate more to foods that enjoy which you know nuts and seeds Tomatoes um bell peppers and things like this are all um staples within a ketogenic lifestyle which are incredibly high in lectins and will cause some sort of stall eventually if you're eating too many of the keto treats again some of these do you know yeah some of these contain lactin they also contain hidden carbohydrates uh Rogue carbs I like to call them in in the form of you know the carb killer bars will say x amount of of carbs per bar but when you look at the sweeteners in there you know they use Xylitol and malol which can be absorbed to 65% as carbohydrate so um there's there's lots of contributing factors um and coming back and and can spike your insulin I mean there are studies showing that you get that you get reative you can get reactive hypoglycemia when e taking in artificial sweeteners because your your brain doesn't know the difference between fake sugar and real sugar it just takes sweet and it just says okay there's sugar on the way we need to produce insulin and so you get a rise in your insulin but you don't have carbohydrates coming in you get hypoglycemia but your insulin's up and so that's changing your metabolic State as well yeah for sure it um there another few contributing factors you know I've made a note you that um a lot of people practice fasting to an you know to to a massive degree when they begin and and I'm not against fasting I fast naturally every day but I do it in two ly um but fasting initially can be a contributing factor to elevated cortisol um the ketogenic diet also leads to increased water loss um also causing the loss of sodium and if sodium levels within the body drop too low the brain will send signals to adrenal glands to increase levels uh of hormones that will regulate fluid balance and cortisol is released along with these so there's a lots of lots of contributing factors uh you know if if a a ketogenic or Carnival diet uh contains to little sodium cortis cortisol levels may increase uh over time but a well formulated carnivore Ken diet containing adequate sodium I.E pink chiman and Celtic Sea salt and those supplementing uh will not alter cortisol levels um and another thing that we tend to do is we gravitate into a ketogenic lifestyle which um this this will this will destroy you and I mention this now is um coffee intake you know the the whole Bulletproof Coffee thing you know the fat coffees people consume lots of coffee more than they would normally you know in in in a normal State um and coffee in the diet increases uh can increase cortisol levels it can damage the adrenals uh and lead to to increases in in cortisol so there's there's a lot of contributive factors in regards to this as well I mean when you begin to cut out these these foods that do not contain lectins uh you move away from the artificial sweeteners uh and once you start eatting a more animal-based typee lifestyle I.E consuming natural levels of fat instead of adding fat to everything um then you know the weight loss doesn't seem to be an issue but now I've I'll share my screen with something I wanted to show you because I I get my Bloods tested fairly regularly um if I can share this this screen now so um this this is the report on there but what what I wanted to show you was was this now there's um see if you can can you see that on the screen there those graphs yeah yeah so now this this study looks at the correlation between increases in cortisol and CRP now I've I've had my CRP levels checked uh and my CRP level is incredibly low um it's never elevated now if if my cortisol levels were increased my CRP you know according to this study would be would be increased but they're not my CRP levels are incredibly low uh another contributing factor is is DHEA U this works against cortisol if you like whereas DHEA levels will become lower when uh cortisol is elevated um and DHA which is produced by the adrenal glands will will will fall now mine is incredibly high so I've I've never tested cortisol per se um but I've tested DHEA and and CRP um and the reason that I don't test cortisol is that a blood test I think go goes on to say about blood testing for cortisol blood tests for cortisol levels are not very accurate because cortisol will increase and decrease various amounts of times throughout the day we know it increases in the morning the dawn phenomenon um it can increase in the afternoon for a number of reasons you know you could be stress related again again coffee related the only way to do this and you probably know a lot more about this than I do is um a saliva test which is one of those things you have to do repeatedly you know throughout the day so I'd even question you know the the way that we're testing the mechanism for for ctis all there but but my experience in regards to CRP and DHEA show that my cortisol levels are incredibly low and I have been living this lifestyle as I say for 10 to 11 years um and there's another study that I'd like to show let me just share the screen again there now so this this one is um share screen three let's open this so this is um so this is this is a study that looks at body composition hor hormonal responses to a carbohydrate restricted diet um now what this um what the study yielded was fat Mass was significantly significantly decreased lean muscle mass was significantly increased which is always good there was a significant decrease in serum insulin an increase in thyroxine which is T4 um and then it goes on to say that um there was no significant changes in glucagon uh total free testosterone sex hormone binding globulin um igf-1 cortisol and T3 so you know this is a study that shows no impact on T3 levels and an increase even in in in T4 um so you know I would argue there that uh you know yeah and no impact on cortisol either and no impact don't cortisol so yeah you know which is yeah which yeah yeah well I was just going to say I mean I think I think you're right you know is um how are we testing the the cortisol doing serum blood tests or they doing you know when you're doing saliva test it's usually four four saliva samples at different times during the day or 24-hour urine cortisol test so they give you the lab will give you a bottle and you'll just you just for 2 24 hours you you start the clock and you just pee into that jug and that's and that's what you you give the LA and then they that's more accurate or you can do a midnight cortisol you just sort of get these things at certain times and you can you know sort of calculate what is what do people normally hit around that time what's normal but you know just doing one getting one data point is not accurate because as you say it goes up and down and up and down and this is a problem with all hormones and cholesterol even too because they they fluctuate throughout the day and you know people will say oh well my my thyroid hormone is down my testosterone is down or something like that like okay when did you get it tested I don't know well it matters you know and were you fasted did you work out the day before did you have sex that morning like all these things matter they all actually make a big difference and and how these results come out and you know to your point about you know what kind of Keto was he doing you know there's a there's a book that just recently came out with Dr Chris Kenobi who's an opthalmologist and uh nutritional researcher so he left he left clinical practice and just gone full-time nutritional research for years now he just wrote a book called The ancestral diet Revolution ution and he makes a real big case a very strong case against seed oils and how basically they are the major driving Factor probably even more so than sugar uh in in uh uh in in the rising chronic diseases and you know major part of this would be like you know the lenol acid and Omega sixes which damage your mitochondria and as we are you know people that that have watched us they probably have gotten the idea that most of the chronic diseases that we're treating these days come down to the mitochondria if you know a major proportion of them do anyway so uh that's a major major factor and and one of the things that that keto people do is that oh I got to get a lot of I got I got to get a lot of fats and so they're going to be taking you know NCT oils and other other you know you know you know almond paste or whatever the hell they're eating uh but they they could be very high in in these plant oils they're high Lin like acid High in in Omega 6 is damaging their mitochondria um that this causes obesity as uh Dr Kenobi uh showed in his research his published research that as you increase the amount of uh Omega 6 in your body the percentage of fat in your body that's Omega 6 it's directly correlated with obesity so so the more omega-6 you have in your body the more fat you are and and you just you just have to store onto this stuff because you can't use it you can't use it as energy and so it has to store it and it causes other sort of uh metabolic issues as well so it causes obesity it causes uh mitochondrial damage and it also causes insulin resistance right and so you know people are saying like well you know this this is all from K ketosis no it's not from ketosis if that's happening to you it's from something else that you're introducing to your body on your ketogenic diet which is why you know I and many other like yourself argue for you know an animal based ancestrally appropriate species specific ketogenic diet it's not the ketosis that's a problem we're all supposed to that's a normal thing we're not supposed to eat carbs there's no such thing as an essential carbohydrate right there their entire populations and civilizations and and this is this is recognized by you know the international you know medical boards and bodies and things like that that there are there is no such thing as an essential carbohydrate and they're entire civilizations that never eat any carbohydrates and they do just fine they don't have any signs of disease or problems and they're much more healthy than we are and they're much more lean much more uh fit and don't have these these chronic metabolic issues so it's not the lack of carbs that's causing a problem it's something else that you're doing these are complex systems and and you can't just say you know pick the first thing that comes mind that's what's it that that that's it that that's the problem right there you know maybe but you have to you have to include all the other confounding factors as well yeah for sure and I think you know that's the reason that we wanted to go through this paper as well isn't it is because you know we we've spoken about this about this previously that we are constantly questioning you know the things that we uh are saying because we want to ensure that the advice that we give people is accurate so I always welcome I know papers uh or podcasts like this because it gives us an opportunity to go back and dig that little bit deeper and see if we're missing something and to be honest going through this paper and studying you know these little bits and pulling up all this little information that we've been looking into has just reinforced the fact that everything that we are preaching you know is um is accurate and I believe that what we are seeing you know is is spot on um but yeah I I I just realized that I jumped the gun in that study because um we went on to the thyroid part which was the next part of that thing obviously there was ctis all in that as well but um think go go just to hammer home the the cortisol part of all that um there there there are so many studies that that literally show the opposite so there there was a study uh done in 2021 in the journal of clinical medicine um and it's called salivary cortisol levels it showed that salivary cortisol levels were significantly reduced after 8 weeks on a ketogenic diet and body composition and biochemical markers were improved so how long is he saying that this is going to be before we start getting these these cortisol problems right and and most of the studies that look at higher cortisol are these are in animal studies these are preclinical these aren't in humans so maybe this doesn't translate as well with with mice as it does with us and also they're not showing that they're having Cushing away side effects as well um that that study I mentioned looking at kids with on a ketogenic diet for epilepsy uh that was that was published in the journal of clinical nutrition 2013 it actually showed that when they came off a ketogenic diet they all gained weight rapidly so they weren't having a problem with weight they were actually very skinny and as soon as they came off of it they slammed up their weight and that's what they were studying they were they were studying what would happen to their weight um you know maybe this they thought this was too restrictive and maybe they were underweight and they said okay you know can they could they catch up can they get fat like the rest of the kids and they did yeah they they got much fatter pretty quickly surprise surprise you know and you know and so you know and when you look at this you know as as I've said you know many times it doesn't matter how brilliant your theory is and it doesn't matter how smart you are but if if it doesn't agree with experiment it's wrong and so there are are studies out there that go counter to that but also what what is happening in real life what what is happening to people that are on a carnivore diet my cortisol is normal I have checked it and I have checked in my PTI I don't I don't commonly do that because I just I don't think it's you know really there's I don't really think there's much utility unless you're actually worried about an actual endocrine problem that they have so there's certain times that you test for this stuff and in my patients on a carnivore diet long-term carnivore diet who have tested their cortisol it's always been normal it has never been high and so I've never been worried about that I've never actually had a concern of oh my God what is their cortisol level going to be because again I go back to First principles what are we supposed to eat what are we designed to eat we're designed to eat meat and so if we're eating that and we're eating our biologically designed diet well whatever the hell our cortisol is that's normal then right so we're looking at our blood tests and markers in in the context of eating horribly and being sick this is why all the reference ranges at at different labs are actually changing and the reference range for all these different vitamins animal based vitamins like B12 or fat soluble vitamins like D3 K2 vitamin A they're all just going down down down down down the reference range is going down because that's the new normal well it's not it's not indicating that you don't need as much for good health it's that everyone's vitamin deficient and so the average is vitamin deficiency and that's what the lab measures is is what the average for the population is so you know that that can be seen quite readily that we are actually getting worse and so you have to look at these things in context say okay well the cortisol is X and this is X+ one oh my God that's a problem but is it you know I mean they're saying that that if your B12 is you know in in Australia if your B12 is between 130 and 620 that's totally fine so you can have a B12 of 300 and be like oh you're well within the range that's an actual clinical deficiency and there are studies showing that you can actually get Dem of your nerve cells you can actually get nerve damage from having B12 under 400 so how are we calling that normal how are we calling 250 points below an actual vitamin deficiency normal it's not normal it's just normal because it's normal for people to be vitamin B12 deficient and so if you really want your B12 in optimal ranges you really want it between 800 and 12200 which is well above the range oh my gosh that's dangerous well of course it's not but that's what but that's what people think who haven't looked into this haven't realized that fact that we are chronically deficient in most of our hormones and vitamins and minerals that if you have slightly higher that's not necessarily A Bad Thing it could be a bad thing but again there are these studies that actually show a cortisol levels going down or not changing at all and most importantly that the signs and symptoms of high cortisol go away and that's what really matters of course I agree yeah and just to touch base again on you know a point there that um cerol being a perfect example you know we're told to be within a certain range um mine is well outside the normal range because normal people are unhealthy it's the the cholesterol range is unhealthy minus 10.26 so it's twice what I am told it should be and I wish that it was higher um so again when you remove those phytosterols your cholesterol uh restores itself back to a natural physiological level which is considerably higher than than than we are told it should be because as we know cholesterol is essential for life so yeah these ranges are certainly open to question uh but yeah I I think we've nailed cters all that I mean the next thing then is is thyroid is say dof goes on to say thyroid is less than optimal in fact pretty bad for most people um they're at the upper limit of North a very large number of PE people are basically hypothyroid and I think we are eating Foods uh that are lowering our metabolic rate um we're living uh excessively stressful Lifestyles which yeah you know we could be uh but let me share the screen there now I mean this is a common study this is probably one that you've seen um a lot of but you know coming back to metabolic rate there I mean this study shows that um this Compares low carb moderate carb and high carb uh the study was is caloric and it showed that low carb lifestyle increased met metabolic rate to the sum of 278 calories per day um so this goes against what he's saying about metabolic rate we know that low carb increases metabolic rate um you know by by quite a lot as well um did you see that sh are you sharing the screen show apologies might help if I actually try to share that screen there we are how was that is that on now yeah yeah hey this technology stuff is H is difficult you know yeah so so this was the study low carb mod carbon and high carb the study again was isocaloric and it shows a massive increase in metabolic rate so again you know this just goes completely against uh what think go for saying that about metabolic Rd um and thyroid so I mean know let's talk a little bit about th thyroid issues I mean it's um my take on this is the body becomes more responsive to these hormones due to beneficial changes in the cell structure function when we're in you know a nutritional state of ketosis or being Carnival for example uh as a result it can function uh normally at lower levels of T3 so when they they're measuring T3 uh it's almost a case of we become more sensitive in a case of uh as we do with insulin so as we adopt a ketogenic or Carnival lifestyle we need less insulin because we become more responsive and I believe this is the case with with T3 as well so it's um living a ketogenic diet seems result in improved thyroid hormone sensitivity um so you know for example it takes less hormone produced uh to be produced to to the same effect um which if anything puts less of a burden on thyroid hormone T4 and and and that's certainly what people like Professor Steve finny have found in his uh in his studies and his research and he's been he's been studying ketogenic diets for decades and so you know he you know and and the thing is too again what are these people eating what are they doing all these sorts of things you know because that you know it's one one thing that I I stress with people on why they don't need to go crazy on organ Meats is because vitamin A getting having too much vitamin A actually suppresses TSH your thyroid stimulating hormone and can that can actually suppress the function of your thyroid so that can actually get abnormalities and you can you can get too low of thyroid um production and and function and action so that's not that's not what you want and so again it matters what you're eating it matters how you're doing this you don't want to get these things out of balance either um but again in practice in clinical practice I have I don't even know dozens at least of patients with Hashimoto thyroiditis so hyp their hypothyroid because of their autoimmune attack on their thyroid they all improve all of them on a carnivore diet the ones who will go on a carnivore diet and there are other ways to improve as well but that that's the major major major way of improving and there are I agree there are a lot of people that are low thyroid and and most of these people are the ones eating a standard diet and I see them I see them in in my office quite regularly and even young kids you know I I i' I've you know guys in their early 20s who were just like I just don't have good energy I don't really feel great you know I just want to I want to optimize my health you take a look at that and they're they have pretty low testost or not testosterone well testosterone too relatively but they'll have quite low thyroid and and thyroid function and TSH and you get the mon carnivore diet that improves it always improves and so you know you're getting rid of a lot of you know the benefits of going on a carnivore versus versus ketos there are a lot of uh things called goitrogens in plants and they they cause goiters they cause thyroid dysfunction as well so what kind of keto diet are they eating are they eating a lot of plants that have these krogens as well and but I I totally agree that you you become sensitized to these things and just like insulin you don't need as much insulin because you're not dealing with all of these these you know extra excessive metabolic stressors and so you know going back again what are we designed to eat and you know if we're if we're all hypothyroid if we're in a ketogenic diet well you know that's it you no one's making it through an ice age right because you can't you can't survive you know and people say like well maybe they just want w't optimal problem with that is that if you have low low thyroid as a woman when you're pregnant your child will have uh what's called cretinism which is Con uh congenital hypothyroidism and that's that causes serious serious serious uh developmental abnormalities low stature deformed features deformed limb growth and uh serious mental uh uh mental retardation so it's it's not it's not a small thing having low thyroid people die from low thyroid and they're miserable the whole time and as I as I've said before you're you're not eeking out an existence in an iceage you either Thrive or you die and go extinct and we didn't just Thrive we dominated we dominated every animal in the Ice Age even though we were pint siiz compared to the megap that were going around we were apex predators we're taking down woolly mammoths for a million years with sticks right sticks and fire you can't do that unless you are at Peak physical condition and and don't have very serious congenital abnormalities it just doesn't work yeah I agree and and another thing that um you know they don't take into account when we see lower levels of T3 is that um levels of TSH also drop which means that there's less impact on thyroid stimulated homeone to increase T3 which means the body is becoming more efficient we don't need as much thyroid hormone because we are becoming more efficient ex exactly you know as we said ear in the same way as insulin does so I mean it contxt is is is incredibly important when we look at this you know um let's have a look at this anything else to add to the thyroid thing there or um do you think that we've uh We've addressed that one I I think I think that just any just just you know ice ages just say ice ages and it just throws away all this stuff cuz we you know uh there were no carbs there was no fruit there was no honey during the ice ages and yet and yet people did very well and so if we're going to have all these serious problems and they're claiming serious problems here that wouldn't have happened and so it just sort of uh you when you sort of look at it through a clear lens you know that that's it it just becomes a bit you know I mean it's a nice Theory you know and and it's you know good on on people for TR trying to explain the observed phenomenon but it doesn't explain it perfectly uh it doesn't explain you know billions of people around the world throughout history who have done this you know and so you know and the millions of people alive right now that are doing this and doing this very long term and don't have any of those same problems that he is espousing and have never had problems losing weight and have n you know on keto but that's the thing you know like you said a lot of people go to keto and they do very well and they might hit a stall and then they go carnivore and they just and then they drop a lot more weight and do very and do even better off that and so you know there are you know quite a lot of people certainly millions of people at least doing keto around the world and many more doing carnivore and a lot of these people have been doing this for decades and they are simply not seeing the problems that are being described in uh you know by this by this person you look at yourself uh and and myself and I and I don't think you'll mind me saying this but we are not genetically gifted people may think that you know we are specially gifted with these Miracle genes I used to be clinically obese and type two diabetic and suffered with Myriad of health issues I am certainly not uh you know uh genetically gifted I have beaten my genes or or controlled them through EP genetics and change my lifestyle and now my body fat percentage is single figures and I'm thriving and you've been living the lifestyle for a long time and you were thriving also and I think when you look at every carnivore you know that you can think of on social media none of them are overweight yeah well and you I mean just and just to the the sugar side of things I mean that that's quite a well studied uh phenomenon now he's saying that uh you know maybe high fructose and all these sort things like some of these things are bad but that that natural cane sugar is good tell me the chemical difference between high fructose corn syrup and cane sugar it's it's it's literally identical you have uh a a disaccharide of glucose and fructose uh in natural cane sugar right so that's or or glucose and fructose and that makes sucrose right that's a disaccharide but high fructose corn syrup is just a is just a mixture of equal parts of fructose and glucose so the only difference is that Bond but a lot of high fructose corn syrup I mean some of it's 53% fructose it's not that high fructose and and 47 % glucose and some some are slightly higher than that but I mean it's like 50 you know 55 45 at the most so it it's very very similar nearly identical to cane sugar and cane sugar that that disaccharide that that bond gets broken as soon as it hits your gut and then it gets absorbed as glucose and fructose separately exactly like high fructose corn syrup so what are we talking here like why why are we saying that that one is okay one is healthy and the other is not I don't I don't think that that holds water now you could find some studies maybe saying that cane sugar is better than high fructose corn syrup who pays for those Coca-Cola mostly Coca-Cola pays for those and Coca-Cola puts out 11 times the amount of nutritional research spends 11 times more on nutritional research than the NIH right and so and Kelloggs and uh you know Pepsi and Nestle they all they all do similar sort of things and they're protecting their investment and and they're pushing their agenda and so there are plenty of studies industry research out there showing hey you know what actually Sugar's not all that bad and they had the same studies for high fructose corn syrup for a while too and then people sort of got on to it and were like hey no Sugar's actually bad fructose is bad mostly by the work of Dr Robert lustig who you know I've followed for years and and then they needed a scapegoat they needed a py and there was an interview with one of the one of the Coca-Cola execs and they're and they were saying so sorry we use high fructose should never have changed from cane sugar oh gosh oh if only we knew like Well why'd you do it it's like we just didn't know oh we just didn't know how bad it was oh god oh we just didn't know oh you poor thing you knew damn well that stuff was you know and and you know damn well now that cane sugar is exactly the same as high fructose corn syrup it's just now that they're they're saying this oh it's natural arsenic's natural like why what what what is natural have to do with anything so they're just using that as a marketing tool and now they're now they're you know putting out things and saying oh look sugar oh that's okay I'm I'm sure it is based on the way you modeled that study but you know independent researchers looking into this like Dr lustic Who actually just care about People's Health are showing very clearly that fructose from any Source once it reaches a certain threshold will cause metabolic syndrome and fatty liver disease that has been shown in clinical trials that satisfied the Bradford Hill criteria for causation so now we have causitive studies showing that fructose causes metabolic syndrome and fatty liver disease and can be reversed by removing it as well as other things you know I mean there's uh you even just removing seed oils and things like that they have similar sort of results as well but fructose is certainly in there and so you know saying that you know just because it's natural I mean pie fro corn syrup is is natural in a way make it from corn you know as as unnatural as corn is you know so this is um this is just marketing and it's just a way to to sort of shift the argument and take blame off of uh of their product and and keep selling this poison that people keep lapping up and they think wow Coca-Cola is so responsible they're so nice they really care about me they don't give a damn about you they want they want to sell their products and they want to they want to do it at any cost to humanity uh that there is and there's some that argue that they're they they're intentionally doing things to cause harm because they're heavily invested in the pharmaceutical companies which then treat the metabolic syndrome and diabetes and cancer and all these other things that you get as a consequence of eating their horrible horrible horrible products and so why would you ever trust a thing that these people produced yeah in In fairness to them I take my hat off where credits doe it's the perfect business model isn't it yeah one makes you sick and the other offers you a pill to make you better um but unfortunately you know to me it's pure criminal but it it's a perfect business model you know that was sort sort of a joke I used to make you know was like you know when I play rugby I'd be giving people head injuries and then you know taking them in and fixing them you know a oneop shot you know yeah it's but believe it or not many moons ago before I became uh or adopted a ketogenic Carnival type lifestyle I was going to invest in uh a Domino's uh shop Domino's store Domino's Pizza uh there was nothing in my area um I used to love eating Domino's Pizza this is when I was diabetic and clinically obese and super unwell um I decided not to but I jokingly said to somebody that imagine that I I had actually gone through with that I would now have the perfect business model sell them a pizza and when they come in and more that they're overweight give them my card to come and see me in the shop to lose but you know what the the the sad thing is if I had gone down that route I would be absolutely minted by now and unfortunately I'm not because I've chosen this route but hey you know it's we've got to fight for what we believe in and and I stand by you know the things that we say and what we stand for um and I'm glad I'm glad glad I think I'd probably be dead if if I did invest in a dominal well you may not have you may not have actually come to keto you may have down that that hole you know and so you know it may be you know you wouldn't maybe you would have had more money but you know you would be a different person and you'd be living a miserable life and I guarantee you that person saw the person you are now they would trade any amount of money to to be healthy and fit and happy as you are now in comparison yeah I agree I agree right choice I think not to buy a dominoes so yeah I mean coming back to what you was saying there it's and that's the next point that he goes on to say is that um uh you know he does go out to say how high fructose corn syrup causes disease yes we know we know that um uh but he goes on to say contrary contrary to popular belief there's a dramatic difference between High fructus corn and cane sugar and again I think you've just you I think 3% yeah I think you've just ripped that apart so it's um yeah he goes on to say they're really two different foods again with youi disagree um just not I mean chemically that's just that's just inaccurate yeah you know they they are not they are not different foods they are nearly identical um and uh and sure there are some there is some suggestions that that high fructose corn syrup can can come with with other crap in it that may may cause a problem but just the fructose is a problem and that is metabolized and digested and absorbed and utilized exactly the same as fructose from any other source be it honey or fruit or cane sugar and the benefit of I mean the difference really in just cane sugar which is just terrible I mean that that is that is almost identical to high fructose corn syrup and it just comes on its own right so that that's refined sugar that's not coming with anything else and fruit is that fruit comes with fiber and that you know can delay the absorption actually cause malabsorption issues which you know some people may think that's a bad thing you know if you're just eating you know highly nutritious food like meat that's not a great thing and uh but if you're eating crap well you know that that actually might be a temper to the bad things you're eating because you're not going to absorb as much and this is something that that that lustig has gone into that when you're eating fruit when you're eating whole fruit you absorb less fructose because it goes it doesn't get absorbed because the fiber blocks it it also blocks all the other nutrients as well so that's not a good thing overall but in the context of fructose that can that can lower its effects honey honey is food for bees we're not bees but you know it does have nutrients and other things in it that can be beneficial to life in general and so we're going to get some added benefit from the honey as well but fructose once it gets in your body is just going to behave the same way now you may get a significant benefit from the rest of the thing that's in honey it may be maybe an overall Improvement in some way maybe but fructose is fructose that's what it is and so you know unless there's something in there that disrupts the metabolism of fructose then you're you're not doing too well okay maybe it doesn't change your blood sugar and this and the other have have all these big spikes like you do with just normal cane sugar but it's still going to be once it hits your liver it's going to be metabolized into fatty droplets and it's going to go down the same Pathways as alcohol um alcohol degradation and you're going to get the same damage to your liver and the rest of your body from those breakdown products like fatty liver disease like diabetes like heart disease and it's even implicated in things like cancer and Alzheimer so this is this is not something that you necessarily want in your body and it it really doesn't matter if it comes from cane sugar or high fructose corn cereal it's the same stuff yeah I I've got an interesting study to come on too as well um but let's read on so I mean it um he goes on to to say how detrimental you know High fructus cor syrup is but again um you know we know that that's the case um he go I agree but we just yeah we just agree that you can that you can separate the two yeah you know what what's what what's so bad about high fructose corn syrup if it's not the fructose and the glucose those the only two parts of high fructose corn syrup those are the only two ingredients right what is the only chemical substance in sucrose you know cane sugar fructose and glucose so what is the difference exactly you know the bond the chemical bond well we know that we we break that Bond and then we absorb these things as as individual carbohydrates as as monoc carbohydrates right instead of disaccharides mon we absorb them as monosaccharides okay so what is the difference you know he doesn't explain that you know so so what is it high fruit do corn is terrible bad but this exact chemical copy is good or at least not bad that that doesn't really make a lot of sense if you it does I mean it doesn't even pass the smell test right I don't need a study to tell me that that's wrong yeah I agree I agree so he goes on to say can cane sugar be part of a healthy diet I mean as you just explained you know we don't think so but he says cane sugar is is pure or if it's poor um it uh has a very different overall uh systemic Health effect than high fructus corn syrup uh again you know there may be a slight difference but again what difference you know it's all about context isn't it um he goes on and what is he basing that on right yeah what what what's he basing that on he's going to be basing that off of industry research put out by Coca-Cola I I don't doubt there are there are plenty of studies saying that cane sugar you know is is physiologically better than its exact chemical copy high fructose corn syrup yeah but that doesn't mean that that's true yeah in fact it almost certainly isn't if it's coming from an industry funded research study which that's stud yeah yeah well that well that's the studies that are saying that yeah for the industry studies yeah so I mean he goes on to say mult multiple studies demonstrate that honey um which is a very similar composition to plain white sugar does not trigger the normal hypoglycemic response that most uh of other simple carbohydrates do in fact it improves hyperglycemia in type two diabetic patients now I've um I've got a study I've got I've got about things to say about awesome let me let me share this study with you and um because this this is an interesting one um where are we share that screen Brant do you want to crack on with something there Anthony while this is opening because my computer's Inc no that's fine yeah I mean think I think think about it this way right he's saying he's basing that supposition not even on orble industry research you know funded by Coca-Cola you know saying that that cane sugar is better he's basing that on honey okay so you say oh it's very similar it's very oh it's very similar you know honey and sugar you know and cane sugar are very similar really are they like nearly exact chemical cop replicas like cane sugar and high fructose corn syrup right no uh they actually actually a lot of Honey has more fructose than high fructose corns syrup A and B it has a lot of other nutrients in it as well again the this is the main sustenance for the entire species of honeybee right so you know there are a lot a lot of other oh it's very similar in what way in in in the fact in the ratio of fructose to glucose uh because cane sugar has no other nutrients none but honey does and high fructose corn syrup is nearly exactly the same chemical replica as uh as the disaccharide uh cane sugar right and doesn't really have any other added uh nutrients as well so in fact it's much more chemically similar to high fructose corn syrup than honey so that's a con so you could say the same thing you could say that high fructose corn syrup is very similar to Honey And since honey does all this other stuff well that means that high fructose corn syrup does you know by the transitive property well no because there are other things that going on here right so he is assuming a fact that is not in evidence he is saying that a equals b and b equals c therefore a equals c but a does not equal B cane sugar does not equal honey cane sugar more equals high fructose corn syrup and if cane sugar equals honey then fructo then high fructose corn syrup equals honey right he is saying that it doesn't and so that is a a logically flawed argument can you see the screen yep fantastic so basically this is a study that looked at um honey and its effect on glycemic control in in uh type two diabetics uh and basically the consumption of 50 grams of honey per day worsened glycemic control um so you know so this this this is this is honey and it does go on to say then that um in agreement with these results human studies on long-term Effect of honey on glycemic control of diabetes patients is very scarce only two investigations have examined Han on glycemic control of di diabetes patients um and it goes on to say that in agreement with us uh in the most similar study an apologies if I pronounce this wrong but the barami study um reported deterioration of glycemic control following ingestion of high uh and uh incremental doses of Honey increasing uh 1 gram per kilogram per day to 2.5 gram per kilogram per day however in the other study investigation um by rats ital honey consumption for two weeks had no effect on serum glucose in comparison with sucrose or high fructose corn syrup um now I believe that this is probably one of the studies that he is referencing because it goes on to say the discrepancy in the results uh of the rats study uh with ours and barami uh studies could be due to the control conditions while ratal compared honey with sucros and high fructose corn syrup we and barami compared honey with no honey so again context is incredibly important so they're comparing sugar to to Sugar in in effect but when you compare no sugar you know sugar to nor sugar there's a there's a big difference so again it's easy to to sway you know your opinion into saying that um honey is better than yeah honey maybe better than sugar um but still it's when you're comparing it to no sugar then it is better still um so yeah yeah I think you know that study highlights a number of fa factors there for me that uh you know context is incredibly important and we know the honey is high on the glycemic index um it does cause glycemic issues uh and honey is arguably one of the most natural sugars that we can consume uh so yeah I completely disagree with this argument in regards toone well you know and also I mean you can find a study that that says anything that concludes anything but you need to look at that exactly you know the context matters the the U methods matter you look how they did it how they came across it you know were they doing serum cortisol what time of day were they doing it was it doing you know were doing multiple draws a day were they taking you know multiple saliva samples 24-hour urine all these sorts of things and you know how well you can conclude that you know honey and sucrose are good for you and yet how did you come across that you know what what was your study design how did you design it was it was it designed in a way that could even prove that at all or is it is it you know complete fluff as as a lot of these things are and so you know that's why that's why there's so much variation in the literature and that's and that's between honest studies of people just doing their best right maybe or just trying to publish because you know an Academia or any sort of you know uh uh you know professional job in you know medicine or uh The Sciences it's publish or Parish you just have to publish publish publish you know so you know just getting anywhere you you you just need to be on published Works doesn't matter what they are it doesn't matter how garbage they are it you just need to get someone it needs to be good enough to get published in something and there there are Journal journals that you can pay to get to get published it so um and and what's amazing is that some some don't even take those like like like you could not pay me to publish your your your study you know but the thing is too is that you know then there are the industry funded research studies again and most of the studies on nutrition are industry funded studies right and and they buy and sell people in The Who and the USDA FDA and politicians and all these different researchers so even the nutritional research that's supposed to be independent uh oxy you know sort of contradiction in terms saying an independent government panel because there's nothing independent about government they are generally bought and paid for and have heavy influences coming down on them on on what they need to uh put forward as their recommendations guidelines and conclusions but you know even then you know the the majority of studies is not coming out by then them it's it's coming out from uh industry funded studies because they they just spend way more money on this and so the literature is is completely plagued with uh these just horribly fraudulent studies and maybe the studies you know they find like oh yeah no that that actually showed that uh you know something we didn't want to see they just bury it they just don't publish it so the only thing you can guarantee from a industry funded study is that it will support whatever that industry is is selling or doing and that's it you know it doesn't tell you any it doesn't actually give you any other information other than that yeah I agree it um coming back to what you were saying about having to publish something I mean do you think this is why there's been like a big transition so I I you know I used to have an awful lot of respect for Dr mola um although he does promote things like turmeric so I mean yeah you know since then I sort of lost a little bit of faith I mean this was the final name in the coffin for me uh in regards to you know trusting some of the things he says because what I've noticed is a lot of the influences lately um they are under pressure they get paid for releasing content um now if you and I were to release content every day about how good carnivore is and we are saying day in day out go and eat a piece of steak because it's really good few and next day go and eat a piece of steak because it's really good feel and the day after soon our views begin to drop so do you do you get the impression that these influencers need to almost create a little bit of controversy I mean uh you know the likes of Thomas Del and um um Paul saladino and now Dr Maka they're almost changing you know their View on things that they've had um for a long time they're going against the things that they've been preaching for a long time do you think that there's a little bit of that play in there that they are doing it in order to keep the views High and the followers engaged because if we were just to say every day just eat a piece of steak it's absolutely awesome you know it there only so many times you can say this you know well you know I've come across that I'm just like what I you know I I sort of said everything that was sort of you know I wanted to say I was like I think the these are important things to say I I sort of did that you know about six months in to my YouTube channel um and then I was like what in God's name am I going to do do I just stop and it's just and I almost I almost thought about stopping actually and just and just keeping it there and just being like I think these videos are very good and it's just this is going to give people information and I I don't want to water it down I don't want to have a whole bunch of other things in there that that maybe make it more difficult for people to find um you know the ones that I think are are really important to watch which is which is what what I ended up doing is is just making a playlist called carnivore Essentials and I think those are and those are like the the Cornerstone sort of videos I think you know that that people should know about or hopefully you know try to educate themselves on and now I'm just you know interviewing people and that seems to be well it's certainly interesting for me I really enjoy it and I enjoy having these conversations and meeting and meeting people like yourself and others and discussing these topics um and people do seem to find benefit from it so uh you know thankfully you know I can keep saying just eat just eat meat and maybe I'll just do an experiment for like 30 days just do a short every day like eat meat do it Baker's basically been doing that because he puts out he puts out a reel like every day of himself just eating a steak you know and and it works it's just like this guy is not messing around like he is he is dead ass serious about this you know and people respect the consistency you know um I mean there may be people that are trying to to do something you know Sensational uh to to get attention uh but they could be very very sincere I mean I I believe that you know I've met Del I haven't met uh you know Paul saladino but i' I've sort of texted with him briefly I I I believe they're both sincere I don't know marola um I mean I know of him but I you know I don't know enough about him uh to comment you know I've I've uh but my impression of the other two anyway is that they're very sincere and they're trying to do the best that they can and um you know if they change their opinion I think it's it's probably you know because they they you know believe it um and they're trying to do something honestly um and whether or not you know I agree with them or others agree with them is is beside the point I do think they're coming across this honestly um and and people can do that and I think that if you if you do that and you just say wow I think that I may have been wrong here I think that takes it you know you know big person to do that and to admit um you know it is it is a bit weird with marola I mean just this one interview and now he's just switched 180 and it's just like really we couldn't have just maybe heard someone else's opinion on it maybe just looked at the research yourself and you know my question to marel was like were you noticing this you know was I if he was doing keto for a long time was he getting fat was did he have high cortisol was he having was he getting stria and Central adiposity and proximal muscle weakness was he getting weaker was he getting sicker um if not then you know why why would you believe that um and so you know it's it's just it's just sort of that's a bit questionable you know because if you're in good health and you're slim and you're slender and this person is telling you that after a few weeks on keto you're going to get fat and you're going to get stubborn weight loss and you're not going to be able to lose weight and you're going to get sick and you're going to have all these problems with high cortisol uh and you don't have any of those problems then then then something's up right you know a theory is only as good as as what it's able to predict and so he's saying that people that do long-term keto are going to have these problems and yet they don't get those problems that's not a very good theory yeah and you question how long he was living you know dink off I'm I'm speaking of a ketogenic lifestyle as well because as you know it takes takes an awful long time to adapt correctly know we can begin to produce ketones within a few days um but it takes months and months and months to fully adapt and app regulate those enzymes and Pathways particularly The Monaco Bulet Transporters uh within the body so I mean it it does take an awful long time to adapt into into utilizing beta hydroxy as a fuel over wasting acetone and acetoacetate um but yeah I I find it interesting I mean it's um you know Paul saladino's work is uh the early work I I think was was spot on um uh I know he does an awful lot of Surfing so you know there may be an argument there for for you know sugar within the diet and but I it doesn't work for me so I work with a lot of athletes I I've experimented many times over the years because I always feel like me am I missing something am I missing a trick can I improve my performance by living a ketogenic lifestyle Carnival based lifestyle and utilizing carbohydrate in some form as a tool um but for athletic performance and for energy it never worked for me it never and in most of the athletes that I that I test Ed in and these are athletes who have been adapted for an awful long time it doesn't seem to benefit they come back to being Carnival in fact most of the athletes I work with now and and in fact most of the clients I work with on a health basis gravita into becoming carnivore they dip out but then they they soon come back so it hasn't worked for me in in my experience but um coming back to this sugar anyway uh you know D go goes on to say that uh he thinks that the greatest confirmation that we have uh that sugar is not evil um is that it depends on where you're getting it from so basically uh he looks at a study uh one animal study demonstrated um that when rats were fed uh fre excess Coke basically sweetened with cane sugar they would eat in the equivalent of 8,000 calories per day without gaining an ounce of fat and in fact I've got I've got the study or part of the study here so I've Got a Theory on this as well so so this was the the graph uh I don't know if you can see that that it's incredibly small but it um it basically shows on on the bottom that the total caloric intake was roughly four times higher without any uh without any excess weight gain um yeah so basically what he's saying that is the cane sugar does not affect the body the same way that normal sugar does um but bear in mind this was uh done on rats where they were able to consume as much uh Coca-Cola as they wanted to um I've Got a Theory but do you want to jump in on that first yeah so so you know what were the other two groups what were they eating the rats were split into three groups one consumed water the other consumed light Coca-Cola and the third consumed regular Coca-Cola Coca-Cola did they have a group doing the same with high fructose corn syrup and honey you know so why are we saying that that that that sucrose is better than high fructose corn syrup if that's not even included in the study um you know 8,000 calories a day yeah you want you want to know what else the you know the conditions are but also was like is that all they were eating so they're just completely malnourished and so they're just wasting away and just like dying of malnutrition and like but they just have a lot of calories you know um you know God only knows and um you know so yeah that's a weird study but but it's um you know it it's uh it doesn't really prove anything I mean there there's a there's tons of studies you just showing like you know sugar intake and having this you know connected to you know serious diseases and you know lustig showing you know reversible nature of uh of sugar you're red removing things with fructose any amount of fructose um and and replacing with carbohydrates you know glucose and things like that and keeping people the same weight telling them no you need to keep eating you need to eat more today because you're losing weight and so keeping people the same weight so not tracking it up to uh you know weight loss and things like that but just eliminating fructose that reversed metabolic syndrome and fatty liver disease so you know God only knows but anyway I I I would be suspicious on who's funding that study as well uh whether they're reporting who's funding it or not because a lot of these people just you know they they don't tell you they don't they don't disclose who's who's uh you know paying the bills for these sorts of things which is you know illegal and unethical but it still happens and so you know this is this is probably one of those Coca-Cola funded research studies that God only knows how you know corrupted biased and um you know and and fraudulent it is yeah I agree uh another fact in regards to the is that um Coca-Cola is incredibly high in caffeine um yeah you know and we know the caffeine uh intake at a dose of around 4 milligrams per kilogram every few hours uh Alters basal metabolic rate increasing it by as much as 11% um so I mean we could and you the studies to to show this as well so I mean it um we've got uh there's this study uh which shows that you know caffeine increases metabolic rate uh the caffeine's uh role uh in Rats on metabolic rate and its ability to to prevent weight gain um despite consuming lots of food and again there's another one um so we know study after study after study shows that uh when we consume you know excess amounts of caffeine this can uh negate some of the fat storage effect of um uh of the food that we are eating and if you were consuming that much Coca-Cola with that much caffeine uh you know I would argue that that much caffeine would be enough to offset any potential fat storage effect so again it's context um I don't think we can take too much into that and again it's an animal study and I know you know we we reference animal studies but uh they don't always translate you know completely because this this is eating an equivalent of 8,000 calories per day as well so I mean you know how you come to that exactly did they account for uh you know physical activity you know were these things just just hyped up you know because jacked up on sugar and caffeine that they're just on the treadmill Jesus you know just hauling ass on the treadmill the whole time you know didn't get weight or did did they control for physical activity bet they didn't no of course they don't and and that that's exactly what these studies you know the study on my left screen there you know highlights that it increases metabolic rate um thermogenesis and it it allows and this is why you know caffeine is used by so many people especially when they begin a gen lifestyle initially because it does have an impact on mobilizing uh fat um you know that increase in thermic effect and metabolic rate allows us to burn more fat but unfortunately excess caffeine you know as we know can damage um the adrenals and lead to increased cortisol you know which is another Factor coming back to the earlier point in the increased cortisol thing so it you know the again context is important um I don't think we can take an awful lot from this study and and I again I would argue that the excess caffeine content would negate heavily any potential weight gain from from the caloric value uh that that rat is consuming yeah and and every other study that we look at this done on rats with Coca-Cola leads to memory loss and and lots of other you know severe uh neurological issues and conditions um so you know I don't think whichever way you paint it Coca-Cola is not is not good for you whether it contains high fructose C syrup or sugar um so I I think we've ripped apart that you know the whole thing about the fats there hey there guys hope you're enjoying the podcast so far I just wanted to wrap this up with the results from the study so what the results actually showed is that the group that was uh consuming the Coca-Cola had unfavorable triglyceride levels so the the R Group which was the group consuming the Coca-Cola showed higher triglyceride concentrations in the serum and liver um and the conclusion from the study reads as follows based on the results it can be concluded that daily ingestion of large amounts of fractos Rich soft drinks resulted in unfavorable alterations on the lipid profile of the rats thank you um he goes on to to say about um you know the glucose cortisol link um the problem is that if your glucose level is low because you're on a low carb diet your body is going to compensate by self-generating glucose uh and that the stimulus uh to make glucose is part uh of the Obesity puzzle because one of the ways in which your body produces glucose is by secreting cortisol now you know that that's true because cortisol will allow us to create glucose through glucogenesis but we don't need so what I find is and what the studies would suggest is early on in a ketogenic Journey when we're in when our ability to produce ketones or burn fat is incredibly low we will increase glucano Genesis to compensate and therefore in early stages cortisol is incredibly high but this soon disappears this drops incredibly quickly as we adapt and now we don't need to rely so much on glucan Genesis and therefore the the Reliance on on any cortisol is massively reduced and coming back to a point you said earlier if cortisol is released then it's there to serve a purpose and it's it's there to serve a natural physiological function um what are your thoughts on that one yeah so I I mean I I I would I would just submit that there um when was this done so there's a study on the long it's called the long-term effects of ketogenic diet in obese patients by uh dood all in 2004 in the Journal of experimental and clinical Cardiology and uh this follow patients obese patients for 24 months in humans right so it's not an animal study uh that had significant weight loss P value of 0.001 right so very statistically significant uh they Dro their total cholesterol increased HDL lowered LDL lowered triglycerides and significantly lowered their blood sugar levels um and they had no change in their Ura or creatinine so you know like long-term kidney function F was was not affected or or worsened by this right and one of the quotes from the paper was that ketogenic diet was is known to ameliorate all metabolic complications associated with hypercortisolism all right so this is after two years so you know this this is a long-term study you know they're looking at this and they found that this dramatically improved you know all the different sorts of you know all the different health benefits that we that we talk about and there are clinical trials in humans showing that this reverses type two diabetes and so you know that's wrong um and also you know ketogenic diets and this is this was quoted in the paper as well that in patients with both act dependent and independent cortisol hypers secretion ketogenic diet is advised during and after surgery or medical management of uh the primary condition so people that have high cortisol ISM for whatever reason now it's going to be have some sort of tumor that's secreting tons of of cortisol or some other sort of medical reason for this uh and you're going to be treated being treated for this they put people on a ketogenic diet to ameliorate and fix those uh signs and symptoms of hyper cortisol ISM okay it does the exact opposite clinical trials in humans than what he is suggesting so again it doesn't matter how brilliant your theory is and it doesn't matter how smart you are if it doesn't agree with experiment it's wrong and there was that other study that I mentioned too that they follow patients for 8 weeks and they found a significant reduction in cortisol in humans with a ketogenic diet so you know there's mixed studies we know why you know some are just you know just not looking at things properly not putting things in proper context and they're coming up with conclusions that they probably don't deserve to come to or they're bought and paid for by you know different interests that that don't uh have you know truth in in in mind when they're putting these things out they just they just want to sell a product and push a push a an agenda and there are just plenty there are plenty of studies out there showing the exact opposite of what is going on in humans long longterm followup so with very statistically significant results and outcomes so yeah I just I just you know you know the idea that this is just a foregone conclusion is is wrong you know we are not seeing these results in you know actual fact in people I have never seen someone have have the issues that he is suggesting people would get and you know maybe you know and so you know I had mentioned this but you know I mentioned you earlier I'm actually debating uh Mr dinkov this weekend so this this podcast will probably come out after that that um uh debate goes on but um you I don't know which one's going to come out first people can can look out for that but you know it uh you know I I may just just you know just my my entire argument will just be a picture of me with my shirt off you know on six years of a ketogenic diet and just be like none of these are happening so you know and and uh you know that's that that's the thing they'll say well that's that's an outlier that's just a that's a oneoff or this and the other but no it it's it's literally every single person that I that I've treated long term or helped long term or know who's been doing this longterm no one has gotten these problems and the studies also show in humans with long-term followup that it's literally the exact opposite of what he's saying yeah 100% for sure yeah I'm looking forward to that that actually it uh I'm I'm hoping that you'll be well armed now after this prep but um for sure the information is there the studies are there you've got the studies and the human studies which is incredibly well um and he goes on to say then that um uh where was the next Point [Music] um chronically elevated cortisol can be an issue and lead to chronic inflammation um yeah well we we know elevated caught us all but it um inflammation is let me share this one so I mean he comes back to fructose uh we know that in you know inflammatory markers living a ketogenic lifestyle are massively improved when we are uh living a ketogenic lifestyle um but there are studies like this one which shows that um fructose you know can induce inflammation uh and and increase cortisol so you know it you know this shows the opposite to to his argument in regards to inflamation and and cortisol um again so this this study after study after study uh goes on to say then that um uh basically the metabolism is not working properly but you know our metabolism we know uh is is incredibly healthy uh all hell breaks loose the body releases an emergency Vaso delator known as nitric oxide nitric oxide is incredibly beneficial um that's not not a bad thing he goes on to compare nitri oxide with nitroglycerin um I don't think you can compare these two one one is produced naturally in the body and you know I mean from a vasod dilatory sort of effect yeah maybe but you know I mean you know there there are tons of of studies showing that that more nitrous oxide and you know you know UVA stimulates nitrous oxide in the body you know what I mean and that and that has been shown uh to to confer great health benefits and so you know yeah it's a bit funny yeah it um you know he goes on to suggest that um you so basically your metabolism is not working properly if you're not oxidizing glucose properly you're not going to produce sufficient amounts of carbon dioxide uh and what happens then via zor constriction um but you know I'll share another one so you're saying that people get high blood pressure on a ketogenic diet yeah yeah I mean it's like that that's literally the I mean that that's that's also been shown have the opposite effect so many patients literally every patient of mine that and and people that I've just spoken to that go on a carnivore diet they all come off their blood pressure medication or at least significantly reduce them in short order you know and and and and that's actually I have to warn people about that saying if you are on the medications like blood pressure medications or diabetes medications you need to be careful you need to check your levels you need to check your blood your blood sugar and your blood pressure because your need for these medications will go down and so now you will get hypoglycemia and and become hypotensive and that can be dangerous and so you need to be on top of that and uh and and and you know work with your doctor to you know potentially reduce your your medication so again this is just not what we're seeing in in humans yeah exactly so I mean you know this whole phas of construction thing is it's it's a lot of rubbish we know that keto increases nitric oxide increased nitric oxide production uh during a ketogenic or Carnival lifestyle increases or leads to increased relaxation of blood vessels we know that this is associated with better blood flow to the heart the muscle as well as better control over blood pressure um nerve signals and and immune function so it um you know everything there that he's just said is completely um you know ripped apart and is in fact quite quite the opposite um was that your study h down you had you had a study up sorry yeah yeah so basically it was just showing that keto improves Vaso dation through the mechanisms that we just describe um you know so it it's the opposite to what to what he is saying um now another thing that um that I think that I've I've missed somewhere in the in in the in the study uh he goes on to to mention about the Randall cycle and and insulin resistance um I'm trying to find uh that that part specifically but can't find it there but uh I I know you've read the study have you got any any thoughts on the impact of living this lifestyle the effects of the Randle cycle and becoming uh you know keto causing insulin resistance well I mean keto cannot cause insulin resistance because you're actually lowering your insulin and you be actually become much more insulin sensitive and so um you know and this has also been shown I mean there there are some suggestions in some you know poorly designed studies where they give someone you know can of Coke you know 3 months after they've been on a ketogenic diet and they say oh wow look it has it has a bad response therefore insulin resistance well no that doesn't necessarily mean that it means that their blood sugar went up for some reason it doesn't mean that they're insulin resistant and that's causing that it just means maybe they don't have a lot of insulin right right away and their body doesn't respond quick enough and that's exactly what what it is when you're eating carbohydrates all the time this is this is toxic to your body you're having high blood sugar chronically causes glycation causes damage to your to your other your other molecules in your body damages you from the inside this is how we measure a this is why we measure hba1c this is a direct marker of metabolic distress damage and greatly increases your risk for metabolic disease and and heart disease and um and other other diseases as well going on the ketogenic diet lowers this as as a funny funny uh funny story it um actually lowers that and it also lowers your need for insulin you become much more insulin sensitive which is why you become uh you start improving your blood pressure people improve their erectile dysfunction and that's because now you're becoming more sensitive to insulin insulin plays a role in basil dilation as well and so now you're sensitive to this and your body works properly so when you are eating carbohydrates all the time because this is toxic because this is poisonous because this is damaging you your body has to preload your beta eyet cells and your pancreas with insulin because it has to be ready to go at any time you know it's just like you live in a bad neighborhood you may have a loaded gun under your pillow because like you get broken into every other week you know so it's like no not again and so you know if you're getting broken into every night you you might want to arm yourself right and so that's what your body does and so it arms itself with insulin as soon as you get that dose of sugar slams out the insulin to try and mitigate the hell that you are putting on your body by by you know putting in exogenous carbohydrates right and so when you don't do that your body says oh okay you know we move to a nice neighborhood we're not getting broken into anymore I can I can you know put the gun in the safe and then all of a sudden the alarms go off and someone's breaking in your house and you're like what's the password you know and you're trying to like desperately get this thing out there's a delay right but then you get it out and and you were able to defend yourself fine there's a delay when you start eating carbohydr hydrates for a few days your body goes oh Jesus this again and you start preing insulin and they find in fact that people are more insulin sensitive at that point because their their bodies are have healed they've recovered they become more metabolically flexible if you will which is a stupid term but uh in that context you know but it's um you know they've allowed you've allowed your body to heal and it actually works better so you know you you have to look past the surface right you have to scratch at the surface to see what else is going on you can't just say like oh well we did this one test and that's it that's all there It Is Well no it could be that but there could be something else going on as well and in fact when people have looked further they found that this was actually to do with the fact that you just don't need to pre-make this stuff if you don't drink alcohol for a year you're going to get drunk quicker why is that did does does ketosis give you uh you know an alcohol allergy and now you're more sensitive to it and now you're just like it's it's more toxic no it's just that you have built up defenses and a tolerance in order to protect yourself and then you didn't need to do that your body's efficient it's not going to build up defenses and spend energy and use resources if it doesn't need to and so if you're not attacking your body and putting horrible chemicals in it it's not going to have to defend against them you know as readily right and so that's the same thing here so you built up carbohydrate tolerance because you know you you've been putting this substance in your body that's harmful and your body's building up a resistance to it and then when you get rid of it your body goes oh thank God we can we can finally like do something else more reasonable and you know it takes a bit of time to build your tolerance back up and that's it that's that's the only thing now you know there's there's this idea with the Randle cycle that you know if you're if you're putting in fat and you're putting in carbohydrates your your cells just go who too much overload we're going to lock this down and now you know no more energy can come in the cell and this this has to go go elsewhere um Simple Solution there donate carbs you know we were already doing that anyway on a ketogenic diet I that's like so problem solves you know I mean like so how how is the Randle cycle causing a problem when the Randle cycle is all about the conflict between fat and carbohydrates exogenous carbohydrates when that's the whole point of Keto is that you're not taking exogenous carbohydrates yeah and that's exactly the point I love that analogy about um about the gun and being in the safe because that I I can picture that and that is picture per that is exactly what is going on isn't it uh due to the Randle cycle it puts the body into a semi diabetic State um because it decreases your insulin sensitivity and and again I think you've just nailed that 100% it's a case of if your body does not require insulin I.E if you're not consuming sugar or carbohydrate then your pancreas is not going to release as much insulin and as you say that the troops become lazy uh but that's the second you test you know that that that system again it's almost as if the body aagul and aagul Incredibly quickly it knows that it is doing you know sugar burning again and it will appar regulate you know sort of um phase two or phase one insulin secretion because that's the first part that that becomes affected but it can be up regulated incredibly quickly uh now one of the reasons that they suggest that um you know so it isn't the case of becoming um you know semi diabetic or insulin um resistant you know because one of the things that they're looking at when it comes to this is that um you know they're checking hba1c uh and as you know when we've been living uh a carnival like style in particular uh this can become increased now hba1c you know the H is hemoglobin which is used for carrying oxygen in the body uh and not glucose per se so that's his job is to carry oxygen but the longer these cells live the more glucose that they acquire and and that's what living a ketogenic and carnivore lifestyle does it extends massively the lifespan uh of of uh of the red blood cell so you know the average amount of glucose that is going to be on there during the HB A1C which covers a level of three months is going to be considerably more so it may appear that our glucose is higher when in fact it's just a case of the cell is living um a longer lifestyle so we don't become insulin resistant glucose levels not increased you know because of of uh insulin resistance the body just becomes more efficient and healthier and cells are living longer and again that um phase one insulin secretion can be upregulated incredibly quickly but I think you nailed that with you know the gun in the safe analogy it takes a little bit longer but um once that gun is out you know your R is spot on and uh and you're back you know firing on on all cylinders as it were yeah yeah well you know and that's the thing too um th this has been clinically proven ketogenic diets have been clinically proven to reverse type two diabetes reverse it and so you know people are going from you know in carnivore as well which is a ketogenic diet or should be in my opinion and uh you know we just did you know that episode of or that that series revers you know was called reversing disease with type two with um carnivore diet there there was a lady who was a type two diabetic she was very skinny you know so she you know she wasn't overweight but she had she was very metabolically sick she was type two diabetic she was on a lot of medications and she had very poor control her hba1c was 13.2 right massive massive I mean I mean that that equates to you know blood sugar levels uh in American Standards like well over 200 every day all day and well over 200 right so um you know even into into you know higher than that the 300 so it's it's an insane hba1c right that dropped down to like low fives right in in a few months okay so it was right away that was changing because again this you know like you said this is a three-month turnover or we assume it is because that's the average life lifespan of of a red blood cell in the body and that's because after a while yeah yeah well that's it you know most people are sick most people are metabolically unwell most know 90% of Americans have at least one metabolic disease right and so you know 70% of Americans are overweight or obese the rest of the world is not far behind some are worse you know as far as overweight and obes obesity goes America is I think last I Che was like we were number 19 so you know there's there's a lot of people worse than us for obesity and and being overweight uh and certainly obesity I think we're the 19 I think that was for obesity we're the 19th most obese country America um and so there are other countries that I mean we I think our obesity rate is like around 40% maybe 42% and and there were others like in in like the Pacific pafic islands like 60% obesity rate right so now some of those guys are just big monster Islanders that are just built like Rick houses you know and so you know because it goes by BMI which is which is a stupid metric so I'm obese according to the BMI right and so you know you you probably would be too I mean every bodybuilder would be obese with two% body fat right and so you know that just tells you how silly that that way of measuring things is but either way you know people are inarguably sick and getting sicker so but either way you know the the textbook teaches three months on average for for red blood cells and and the reason being is that their the cell membrane starts to get a bit stiff so they have to be able to fold around go in these capillaries or tiny little things sometimes the the red blood cell will have have to fold in half sort of squeeze through these little tight Corners right and so if they can't do that if they're going to get stuck some obviously that's going to cause a blockage you're going to kill off parts of your body you're going to you know cause you know little mini strokes all over your body and your brain has a lot of these little things and that's that can't happen and so the spleen is a bit more sensitive to that all of a sudden it just starts struggling through these little capillar just whacks them and eats them right and pulls them out so when you're eating a bunch of Omega 6es a bunch of plant sterols this because cell membranes are cholesterol right the cell membrane is cholesterol you know so how is cholesterol bad for us again when we are literally made out of cholesterol every cell in our body is made out of cholesterol almost every hormone in our body is made out of cholesterol so it's a bit it's a bit funny to say that cholesterol is bad for you when we are cholesterol and so when you get these plant steril it can actually replace some of the of the cholesterols in there and they're not as good they're stiff and they're and they're and so you can actually get artif ially low hba1c uh in someone who who eats a lot of you know plant sterols and and things like that and plant oils because the red blood cells aren't living as long and they're getting pulled out of their system quicker and then you can get inappropriately or or uh artificially high hba1c if you're actually a lot more healthy and you don't have all these plant steroids and other sorts of inflammatory factors because you know and there's other things that can that can cause your red blood cells to live longer that you know now they're being exposed to blood sugar longer and so like you said people on a ketogenic diet or a carnivore diet they're just exposed they their their red blood cells are living longer and so they're exposed to this and they're being compared against the three-month average but maybe they're living four months five months who knows you know we haven't we haven't really studied that but we do know that that phenomenon exists and you can measure people's blood sugar and you can see it's just like you know 74 every single day every single time you check it or 60 or whatever it is and so it's consistently in in a very good range optimal range and people feel good and then you check their hb1c and it's something you know akin to you know not pre-diabetic but sort of approaching that and where you're you're sort of like where you would expect someone to to be seeing you know their blood sugar average daily blood sugar be like 120 or something like that and yet their average blood sugar is 60 every day and so you know that OB viously means that there's a discrepancy there in how long their blood cell red blood cells are living but again we have studies clinical trials in humans showing large studies with lots of patients showing that ketogenic diets any ketogenic diet can reverse type 2 diabetes and as as um Dr Kenobi points out in some of his research in his book which is insanely well researched there like 1300 uh scientific um references in that book so it's huge huge huge uh amount of references so that you know some of these things you know uh really improve a lot more uh if you get rid of the type of ketogenic diet you do so ketogenic diets that that are high in seed oils they don't do as well right but you get rid of those seed oils and go more to animal fats or to saturated fats not the not the polyunsaturated fats and the linolic acids and the omega-6s you get away from those and people do much much much better but you know either way we're clinically we're clinically reversing type 2 diabetes you know so what are we talking about here is oh it's going to raise your hp1c it's going to cause diabetes it's going to cause insulin resistance and yet it does the opposite in clinical practice so it's wrong I've never worked with a client who came to me as a diabetic who adopted a ketogenic or carnival style lifestyle reversed their diabetes incredibly quickly and never become diabetic again um and these people so it just doesn't happen you know and you know you could argue these are people who are pre predispositioned to be know diabetic long-term ketosis and being Carnival uh does not it does not make you insulin resistant or or diabetic um no it it was literally the original treatment for diabetes especially type one diabetes back in because the type two diabetes was just I mean was rare as tee um you know before the 1980s more 1980s and 1990s um and uh but like in the 1800s you know before we had insulin the kyen die was the only thing that kept type ones alive it's the only thing you know and so you know we've actually been using ketogenic diets to you know to to well to to have uh better survival in type 1 diabetics um and and that's the thing too you can get diabetic ketoacidosis in type one one so people go oh my God I can't go on a keto keto die because I'm going to get you know dka and it's like no actually it prevents that you know which is quite quite significant you know so so you know it allowed people to live live longer and and uh and potentially survive when otherwise they they wouldn't really and you know when when type two diabetes came in I mean this is just perfectly regulates your blood sugar because you're not bringing in anything else so what would you rather do to regulate your blood sugar would you allow your body would you want your body to make blood sugar and keep it exactly at the right level all the time no matter what or you know just take in a random amount of carbohydrates a random times throughout the day and get these big spikes and Insulin spikes and and you know blood sugar spikes and corresponding insulin spikes and have no control really over your blood sugar and what it does so I mean that that that really really doesn't make sense you know you obviously you know the consistent constant blood sugar that your body controls and regulates tightly it's obviously going to be much better than having slamming up your blood sugar to 180 and then you know dropping it down and spiking it up and dropping it down spiking it up obviously that's that's the wrong thing to do and so how are we how are we trying to argue that doing that and having consistently higher blood sugar sugars on average is how is that how is that going to be better for diabetes you know I mean people come off of insulin people have been on insulin for de for for decades and they come off insulin by going on a on a ketogenic diet right for type two you know and there animal models showing animal models showing that you can even do this for type one and that going on on a keto diet or even just fasting for four days out of the month in in mice equivalent of 4 days fasting is uh is enough to uh actually regrow stimulate the regrowth of your beta eyet cells and start producing insulin again they're trying that in humans to see how that goes we'll see uh but they can do it in mice anyway and either way they're they they definitely showed they could reverse type two diabetes and perfectly control type one and even reverse it in some in some cases so you know it's it's it's just it's just funny to me that that we're even having this this conversation you know thousands and thousands of studies that show the you know rampant improvements in health that ketogenic diets provide we haven't even touched Alzheimer's and and things like that you know but I mean and and and psychiatric disorders like major depression anxiety bipolar disorder OCD even schizophrenia can be reversed with a ketogenic diet and I just don't care what it does to your cortisol after that that if you're not hallucinating and you can actually lead a normal life hash worth it buddy yeah for sure and that would be an interesting one to do to do after this actually is is maybe sort of um the Alzheimer's and and other sort of uh you know brain issues and improvements associated with the lifestyle because that's something I've been researching a lot lately I I interviewed um Patrick hord uh this week uh interesting podcast um but yeah that'll be a good one but completely agree it uh I I I've worked with um there a lady that I work with who was diabetic for 23 years been living lived keto for a year and be Carnival for two years so three years in a ketogenic lifestyle or in a metabolic State koris the fittest and healthiest she's ever been um she now competes in triathlons R runs marathons uh and she's one her age category in a few with these triathlons after you know being clinically obese and diabetic for 23 years no sign of diabetes return in and all of her health markers are absolutely incredible so I mean if three years isn't um isn't good enough to use as as as a trial then I don't know what is and and again you and I you know have been considerably longer than that so it uh the proof is in the pudding isn't it um I think you'll like the next one now you are well versed in this uh over myself um uh we go think off goes on to talk about cancer uh and how sugar doesn't feed cancer basically and fat is the issue um that's cute and it's I know it this part was almost laughable to me because we know that all cancer cells are metabolically inflexible they cannot be fued by ketones every Cancer cell is fued by glucose um there is another F Source or glutamin um there's not so much we can do about glutamin because it's required for lots of other processes in the body but every every cancer cell is fed by glucose but um he goes on to say that uh I think some of the ideas around glucose feeding cancer cells uh stem from Two basic misunderstandings one is that cancer uh is an evil cell genetically mutated uh and the other uh uh and that your your only chance to kill uh those cells um because they're not going away by themselves um yeah so I mean first of all that's not true spontaneous remissions of cancer is well known uh in prostate Cancer's pretty high uh rate of spontaneous remission and another paper came about five years ago from um MD Anderson Cancer Center in Texas said that always before the position of medicine uh the cancerous mutations happen uh and that the cell becomes metabolically deranged um but it looks like we have got this backwards it's the metabolic Arrangement that happens first and over time this triggers uh the genetic mutation of the cell um and then the cell being I agree with that part yeah yeah it is a metabolic disorder and it's it's the damage to the mitochondria that kicks off free radical species and and can damage the DNA and cause more mutations and you know potentially there are mutations that you can have that that that speed this along certainly um those genetic mutations are are are actually they actually affect the mitochondria though you know so you can have these genetic changes certainly and that can that can predispose you give you a familial uh predisposition to cancer or an individual one if you had a denovo um mutation uh but but generally these these mutations affect the workings and function of the mitochondria you know so it's it does come down to that I think and um well I think that's the evidence shows anyway and um but I mean you know otter warberg showed 100 years ago that that cancer cells require 400 times the amount of glucose as normal cells because like you say they they can't go they can't do oxidative phosphorilation they can't process ketones properly um form equals function in cellular world and so they've lost the form they've lost the function of normal working mitochondria they lose the crystal ST which are the the the the inner membrane surfaces in the mitochondria that that have you know that that you know perform that function of converting you know different you know chemical energy into ATP right and so they can't do that anymore so now you've got you know substrate level uh fermentation as opposed to uh phosphorilation oxidated phosphorilation right um it do they don't run on that because they can't they can't you know they they've lost that function and uh and they do require a lot of glucose um a because they're metabolically very active but also because they you know they they require more because they're very inefficient at uh at at producing ATP from uh glucose or glutamine or anything else and so this is why we we track cancer cells throughout the body by using uh you know radio uh you know radioactively marked glucose molecules right so this is what a pet C is right so a positron emission um you know like this this is this is like the CT that we do we inject you with this sort of you know radioactive glucose and it shows up it's radio opaque on CT and uh you you do pet scan and all of a sudden you get this this big globe in your lung you're like that's not good that's not supposed to be there and um you know so that's how we track that so we know they they run on glucose where's the fat we're not we're not sending in radio uh radio fats you know so I mean where where is he making that argument that that it's actually fat driving it or fat feeding it or or the fuel is fat because I have never heard anyone argue that and I've never seen a single Paper supporting that no me neither um it goes on to say that if if the mutations are secondary to metabolic Arrangement it's got to be one of these two Mac nutrients that we can manipulate to actually cure cancer uh they've already tried glucose restriction uh that did not cure cancer well I would argue that's notely against complely untrue yeah uh it did have sensitizing effect to um chemotherapy but it not result in actual cancer emission again i' I'd completely argue against that complete garbage yeah so now we're back to the other Mar actually incorrect completely completely and we know this um yeah we know this so so now we're back to the other macronutrient restricting supply of fat multiple studies uh I have at least uh 30 on my blog have shown that restricting lipolysis by administering the beta blocker um uh prop prop there we are spit that one out lowers lipsis um so I mean it it goes on to say the lowest blood pressure by blocking adrenaline if you blocking adrenal in uh you're also lowering lipolysis because adrenaline is the primary activator of hormone sensitive lipas enzyme basically you go into to restrict the supply of fat to your own tissues uh to the tumor but it's um I mean that's the complete oppos so sorry sorry but I mean this is pure supposition right so he's saying that Pro propranol La can help and and this is why well you have no evidence for that you have you have no you have no reason you know you have nothing to base that on you know you're you're you're proposing a mechanistic explanation for that but you have you have nothing else apart from your posit that you know that says that's true or not it's just like well has this mechanism and I I bet you this is why that helps like okay nice Theory prove it you know like you have you have to prove it you can't just you can't just float out a theory yeah and you know it's it's know time after time we have seen uh cancer patients uh cure reverse their cancers through living a carnivore ketogenic type lifestyle I've worked with two myself I worked with a young boy seven-year-old boy uh WHO cancer treatment failed chemotherapy failed he adopted uh a special ketogenic type lifestyle that we put him on um and he is now cancer-free uh without chemotherapy yeah there's another lady that we worked with with with breast cancer she continued with chemotherapy and a ketogenic lifestyle and is also now cancer-free so make from that what you will uh but one thing for sure um you know this young boy was on lots of fats lots of protein uh the one thing he wasn't consuming was carbohydrate or glucose and study after study shows you know we've seen that as again you know by the warberg fact the cancer cells are metabolically inflexible you know they are fuel by glucose and this this whole hypothesis that that it is fat that is is causing this you know is is laughable to me but um propan yeah I'll have to work on that one all of these super big words that we throw out every day and I can't pronounce one this half well it's just a different language and you just you just get used to to saying these these stupid words but yeah so yeah it's just practice Yeah and and to be honest as far as medications go that's not one that I'm I'm entirely versed in I'm not trained in medicine um nutrition it's a beta blocker a beta blocker so yeah so so it can be used for blood pressure it can be used for rate control rate and Rhythm control so you know people with atrial fibrillation you know they because you know Norm well quite often people get fast aib and so you you your body your heart's kicking off a lot of ectopic beats so a lot of a lot of signals a lot of chemical Sparks right and your muscles respond to electricity right you you give like elect electric stem it'll tense your muscle up right so that's how your that's how your heart contracts it it you know pacemaker cells kick off and you know just make like a little electric burst and that El electric electric signal propagates through from cell to cell to cell to cell and you get that contraction right and uh and it's done in in a certain pattern so these the the top of your heart uh contracts first and that signal goes down to the bottom of the heart and then the bottom heart goes and so that's um that's how that goes and so but when you're getting ectopic beats ectopic meaning you know extra and uh then you're getting a lot of mixed signals and you get ad fibrillation because you're getting so many signals that the top heart is just going and it's just stuck so that's that's called adrial fibrillation because it's fibrillating if you look at it and you actually do open heart surgery just sort of sort of moving like my hands is fibrillating but there's only there's only one path down uh through the Peri fibers down through the septum of your heart from the atrium down to the ventricles that can propagate that signal and then it starts the whole process over again so then it just goes whereas this like you know in in Atrium you're getting Beats from from multiple areas and it's just it's just stuck right but then your your ventricles are just beating way too fast and it's all like different you know uh Rhythm as well and so it's it's not it's not it's not healthy and uh and you can kick off clots and things like that and get massive strokes and so propranolol atop LA and all these other laws if they sort of end in that in that um you know that sort of lol they they are these beta blockers and that can slow it down and so it literally stops your heart from being able to beat more than like 40 to 60 beats a minute and uh and sometimes a bit less so it's just this it's just this metronome it's just very slow it doesn't matter what you're doing and so if you're trying to play sports and you're trying to get your your your raid up it's not going to happen so you can't get your cardiac output out at all it's very difficult to uh to exercise at that point but uh that's what it's for um primarily the the beta blockers and but you can um you can use it for for blood pressure as well you can also use it as an anti- anxiolytic so you know for anti- anxiety um this is actually a better uh thing to do for most people if they're if they're going up to a known event that causes them stress like a family dinner or speaking engagement you know people have difficulty with public speaking there you know it's it's uh actually you know fairly common for people to take a beta blocker and you're just you're just you're just like a metronome so even though you're going up there going like oh my God I'm going to be freaked out it's just like you can't actually amp yourself up like you're it just it's chemically blocked and so you just go up there and be like I should feel freaked out like now right now but like I am worried about this but I don't feel freaked out I like okay I just go go ahead with it and so you know if you're going up you know you can't predict everything you know but if there's something that you're coming up to that's a predict that you can predict like hey I've got these these interviews and things like that then you can anticipate that and do that and it works well quite well because it's not you know it's not addictive and habit forming like uh like beta block or or like benzo diazines like Valium and xanic and things like that are which is a common thing to do but they're they're you know they come with too many problems you don't want to do that so beta blockers can be can be a bit better and apparently they cure cancer so there yeah interestingly uh I was prescribed be the blockers years ago for for for anxiety obviously I I never understood the mechanism behind it but um it didn't work uh they did work but I didn't like the way that that they felt um living this lifestyle has cured all of these issues for me you know I am completely medication free now so I mean again you know diet lifestyle uh trumps everything I think you know um but yeah I mean I I think we've we we've gone through all of those points in there um he does go on to mention something about um you know cholesterol being negatively affected and and and increasing being bad but I mean I don't even want to go into that because we know cholesterol is is is absolutely essential uh he does mention a few points you know about the benefits of vitamin E and I agree you know the benefits of vitamin E you know we all know uh but again I think that fat soluble vitamin by the way not a carb soluble vitamin yeah ex exactly yeah 100% well well but you know I mean the thing is you talking about you know the damages to your your to your cholesterol well a you know who cares you know but at the same time again you know that that uh 24mon study on ketogenic die they actually found total cholesterol went down HDL went up LDL went down triglycerides went down so even by conventional metrics that improved cholesterol um and it improved by by our standards as well which is you know HDL going up triglycerides going down and you know having you know a much more likelihood of having the large Point LDL cholesterol molecules which are you know very beneficial and healthy um and you know and blood sugar going down hba1c going down things like that so the long-term followup in humans show again the opposite yeah exactly and you know again you know LDL is essential for life that's what heals and repairs the body so massive miscommunication in regards to the importance of of cholesterol there but I mean I it yeah it is and and I think you know within our industry yeah exactly I I don't think that's even worth the air time to be honest but well I think I think I think if anyone if anyone's watching this or knows us they they know those arguments and if they they don't they can look at our other podcasts you know I have I have one that's just you know it's called the truth about cholesterol and heart disease and I I go through the studies and the history and and how this was actually laid out by the sugar companies and bought and paid for with industry research to vilify cholesterol and uh and exonerate sugar and uh you know they they paid off a bunch of Harvard professors they paid off anel keys that douchebag and one of those professors was named head of the USDA he was the one who authored and published a 1977 declaration saying that clustal causes heart disease and and that's what changed the world so we know this is fraud we know this is um this was was perpetrated as a fraud in order to protect the Investments of the sugar companies and that's it you know that's all it was it was cholesterol was never a problem I don't even check it uh unless a patient like specifically asks for it and then it's just like I don't care it doesn't it doesn't matter it was never a problem the only thing that I really care about a you know if your HDL is your triglycerides are low you know that means that you have more of the large buoyant LDL but also LDL being high you know there are studies with hundreds of thousands of patients showing that the higher your LDL cholesterol the longer you live and the less the less risk you have of going to nursing homes getting dementia getting Alzheimer's getting Parkinson's and uh you know it lowers cancer risks in a lot of uh demographics as well and so you know this is just this is just not the problem that we've we've been told that it was was just just plain and simple 100% one of the biggest studies that I usually reference is is on the bmj covers 68,000 participants um and it shows an inverse Association representing 92% of the participants in regards to to LDL basically it shows that the lower your LDL the higher your risk of death um mine at the last check was 8.26 um I'd like it to be higher um but yeah in fact I think it it came down uh ever so slightly from the one before not right check very often as you say I'm comfortable in regards to my body being fit and healthy if cholesterol is elevated then that's what it's meant to be if my LDL is is up fantastic that's what it's meant to be um and there are other contributing factors that can can alter this as well if you become unwell if you test around the time of a virus obviously cholesterol is used to fight off that virus and infection can be lowered um so you know I don't test um because I'm worried I test usually just to prove to other people especially in correlation with you know CAC score um so I've got zero calcification of my arterial wall yet my my cholesterol is double figures so I mean take that from that what you will but um cholesterol is essential for life and we know that you know um absolutely yeah I I think I think we've covered all of the you know the big factors on there um is there anything else that you wanted to add to that no I think I think you know I think I think the main take home from this is that you can you can find studies that that say anything but you know look at what other studies are out there you know see is that is that the entire embodiment of the literature you know or there other studies and then you you compare the two and look at them and see who paid for them see where they came from see the methods see the P values you know see if they're statistically significant see if the methods and uh just and the results Justified the conclusions that were drawn um if they don't then you know you know you you don't consider that study you look at that study and be like yeah that concluded that but that's wrong I'm not going to I'm not going to listen to that one and uh so that that's a thing you know you can you can honestly and intelligently come at this and and and come to very different conclusions because there is just such a wide body of uh information and studies out there and they are completely diametrically opposed so so one of them have to has to be wrong or and if not wrong then lying so you know it's just a matter of trying to figure out which one which one is which and again I think it comes back to First principles what are we biologically designed to eat what is our biological nature what we people eating during the ice ages when we were thriving when we were 6'4 on average when we were killing woolly mammoths with sticks you know that's what I want to eat that's what I want to be like and that's what I want my kids to grow up as and you know and and what do we see in clinical practice in humans do we see people getting you know Cushings by being on keto for for a long time no we don't and we see that in the studies as well and so those studies are much more likely to be accurate because they are lining up with the observed facts and reality which is people stay lean they don't put on weight they don't get deranged cortisol I mean some people don't even get you know raised cortisol at all but none of them get you know symptoms of hyper cholesterol hyper cortisol ISM I should say and so that that's the observed facts The observed facts are when people go on a cvore diet a ketogenic diet uh they get better they reverse diabetes they reverse insulin resistance they reverse hypercortisolism and um you know and they you know like the study said they ameliorate all symptoms and signs of hypercortisolism so you know that's what matters what matters is what happens to real people because that's what we're trying to do we're trying to get information to in order to live better lives we say okay well this guy's saying don't do keto because that can cause these problems but that's not actually anything that anybody ever gets so you know you have to sort of wonder about that and and or maybe some people are getting them and some people aren't okay well if all of them are on a ketogenic diet they're all in keto is they're all abstaining from carbohydrates but they're getting different results then it's obviously not the carbohydrates obviously it's not the ketosis it's something else and you and I are perfect examples of that we get very different results everybody I talk to gets very different results than that all of my patients get very different results than that there are people that have problems and and you work through them and there are generally things that are going on they're still including in their diet they're still eating and drinking certain things that you know throw a wrench in the gears uh I don't have as much experience with keto I've never been a keto coach you know I'm I'm not even a carnivore coach I just you know I just talk about carnivore and I try to help people with it if I can um but i' I've never had to you know just had to go through all of that of just keto why isn't this working I'm I'm I'm already past that I'm just like hey there's more bad things out there than just carbohydrates and this is why you're seeing mixed results with keto because some people are doing really high fat animal uh based keto and they're doing really really well and then others are having you know some other stuff too and they're not doing so well why is that well they're both doing keto but you know they're including different things in their meals or excluding different things as well and so for me it's very easy yeah stop eating that crap just eat meat you know it's very easy doesn't matter what's harming you it goes away when you just eat meat thanks again for coming on board pleasure as always uh I know you know you need more um uh introduction as it were into into where to find you but I always like to to to add it in at the end um where can people find you yeah uh yeah so uh know YouTube is is is my main Channel just Anthony chaffy MD and my podcast is just called the plantree MD and Instagram is again Anthony chaffy MD Twitter is Anthony chaffy and uh you can basically find everything uh that you need from there and and um as I think we're putting this on both of our channels Richard how do people find you where they they find me again YouTube is keto hyen Pro um it's the same on or keto unor Pro on on Instagram I believe my personal account I've recently changed to my name which is Richard Anthony Smith um uh yeah I've come away from you know the the keto athlete UK I did change it to Carnival uh but then I thought I might as well just roll with with my name um so I've changed it to that and obviously lots of free advice available direct from the website which is www.the keetoo docomo Richard Anthony Smith again you know you can find Anthony chaffy on Facebook as well um and I think that's about it I think any any Google searches would would uh uh would find us quite comfortably um but fantastic great chat and again as always Anthony pleasure uh I look forward to the next one thank you sir me too great to see you hey guys thank you very much for taking the time out to listen to what I had to say if you like it then please like And subscribe to my YouTube channel and podcast and if you're on YouTube then please hit that little bell and subscribe and that'll let you know anytime I have a new video out which should be every week if not more and if you could share this with your friends that would help me get the word out and let me know that you like what I'm doing thanks again guys [Music]