"I Never Knew Carnivore Would Do This To My Kidneys!" | Ira Sahay

welcome to the plant-free MD podcast with Dr Anthony chaffy where we discuss diet and nutrition and how this affects health and chronic disease and show you how you can use this to optimize your health and happiness both mentally and physically hello everyone thank you for joining me for another episode of the plant-free MD podcast I'm your host Dr Anthony chaffy and today I have a very special guest Miss era sahai from India and she is going to be discussing with us um her story coming to a corner board diet and um and some of the issues that she faces helping people in India uh era thank you so much for coming on uh my pleasure uh Dr chy and uh it was again a pleasure to interview at the second metabolic Health conference and we had a great session and thank you so much for inviting me here yeah well you're very welcome it's a pleasure to see you again and um yeah it was great the metabolic Health conference was fantastic so if people haven't seen that please do go and check that out um so for people who haven't come across you before can you tell us a bit about yourself and what you do yeah I'm a certified metabolic health coach I'm based out of Mumbai India I'm a member of di which is India's first and the oldest and the only awardwinning Loca platform um I am a certified metabolic health coach from there and I've done their course which is um you know incidentally also the biggest course on loab nut nutrition and metabolic Health with 60 uh CPD credits so you I've been certified by the biggest course and uh that's my introduction and as I said I practice and I practice on online and I have I'm working with people from all over the world currently um I see uh clients from everywhere and my specialization or uh you can say the more cases that I see are of autoimmune of course they also of other metabolic issues but largely autoimmune cases very good and so you now practice a carnivore diet is that right yeah but you weren't you weren't always carnivore were you oh no I I no I was a carnivore I am a classic case of you know being on both sides of the spectrum and I know the you know what a vegetarian diet does to you and what a carnivore diet does to you so without knowing the benefits of the carnivore diet I was born into a family that was Hardcore carnivore and my dad D was in films uh initially he did a bit of acting and then he is a big name in The Association side of the films so uh he was always very conscious of his looks and all of that and he was a professional bodybuilder and he was also you know a small time model in his college days so he's very conscious of his body and what is what his food was so incidentally I was born in a family that ate meat both times at least my dad did and and uh you know I did the same and I loved it so growing up you know all all of these influences the social influences that you have uh influences from TV influences from fear and um you know from everywhere and I don't know why but I cannot clearly point it out but I think it must be happening to a lot of people that they get influenced uh you know by you know current uh waves or Trends or whatever brainwashes them and I turned vegetarian for about 10 to 12 years and uh um that that's the story short but then I had uh an autoimmune condition I was diagnosed with an autoimmune condition in 2021 and uh just by Stroke of Luck you know I discovered the carnivore diet because I was looking for um it was kind of a Do and Die Do or Die moment for me because I was on the verge of uh of being advised renal transplant by the doctors they were already going to put me on steroids so the story really begins uh in 2021 but yes the background is that I was born into a hardcore carnivo family and then I switched on to vegetarianism not veganism where I had Dairy I had eggs but largely it was plant and grain based so this happened for 10 12 years at the end of the spectrum I was diagnosed with a uh membranous nephropathy which is an autoimmune condition yeah and so when you when you switch to uh a cornivore diet because a lot of people say well you can't do a cornivore diet because your kidneys are damaged because you have all this protein but what actually happened when you switched back to a corn yeah so I I'll I'll narrate this I it's it inspires me as well when I think about it and the space that I was in it was a very very dangerous and scary place to be in for anybody so uh this is uh in 2021 and uh end of September um I don't know whether it's related to the covid vaccination or not but I took my second shot and uh within two days I started noticing I had to go for a meeting somewhere and I started noticing that my uh you know the track pans or you know the dresses would not fit me and I changed two three outfits and I was wondering what has happened I didn't have the time really to think about it and uh what had happened actually uh was that you know I was retaining a lot of water in my body and I had slightly noticed it but maybe not that much so I went out for this meeting and I finished a meeting I came onto the road and I was talking to all my colleagues and you know before just saying goodbye and while I was in this conversation I started feeling a lot of heat and a lot of heat on my head on the back of my neck and instantly I started blacking out I knew something is happening I've never blacked out in my life so it I was scared like hell and uh you know a lot of heat feeling of heat and then you know I could not see anything and it was all blurred and then it completely I completely stopped seeing anything completely stopped hearing anything as in a very confusing State I don't know whether I was dead or or Alive you know at that moment I didn't even know what's happening to me and I just fell on the road luckily I was not in the middle of the road and I was you know we were standing on the sides and we were talking and I just blacked out while I was blacking out the only thing that I knew is that I held on to my purse because it had some important documents so that's my last memory of that and cut to you know I don't know how many minutes later but as they told me about 5 minutes later uh you know they they uh picked me up and they sat me down in a shop nearby switched the fan on gave me water know everybody was kind of scared and uh I just couldn't figure out what had happened to me I mean it feeling of light headedness I had no sense even though I could now here and I could now I was like Zapped you know why what happened and I kept sitting there and all these people you know they help me reach home so I reached home between the lift and my uh apartment I'm on the fourth floor I could not take that uh you know those few moments of being in the lift and uh in the elevator and I thought you know this is the end of my life it was such a suffocating feeling and I was constantly you know mildly blacking in blacking out and coming back even though I was outwardly looking conscious but I know what was happening to me I just came home and the best thing that I knew at that point of time was um you know a bit of salt and sugar mixed in water and I just drank that and I slept when I woke up it was almost late evening and uh I live by myself so I went to my friend's place who's just next door so I told her that you know such a thing had happened and she panicked and she called in a doctor and the first thing that she checked was uh my BP was very low I think 60 something thing it was 60 by something so I don't exactly remember the number but she said you know it is dangerously low and at that point of time too I was just you know kind of um zooming in and out of uh I would not Consciousness but that awareness I don't know what she was saying I don't even remember who came and you know what they talk but I just remember that your BP is dangerously low so from there um I then had to travel to bangal where my parents are based um so that was just 2 days uh later um and then uh you know when I traveled to Bangalore they took me to the biggest Hospital there and they had already booked an appointment I had called them and told them such a thing had happened and uh the moment I landed there I just kept my stuff in the house and I went to the hospital I got myself you know check thoroughly for three days They carried out test after test after test every damn test was done and then they zeroed in on membranous nephropathy and they told me that you have an autoimmune condition which is called membranous nephropathy by then you know uh at that point of time I didn't know what it really was but I knew that something is happening to me and this is not normal I I don't know I was in a very fuzzle state of mind I don't know what to do I didn't know what to say I didn't know how to go back and what to do after that so I was trying to ask ask a lot of questions but you know in in the series of tests that they were doing when they certained that I have membranous nephropathy to confirm that they did a lot of tests there was uh 24 hours protein UA which was massive the leak was 7,635 mg per 24 hours they did the spot uh urine protein test they did the ultrasonography they did uh the biopsy was done in the end when I was Hospital hospitalized and I had legs that had swollen like an elephant and it was so painful to walk because I felt there was water that is moving inside my body and because of that movement and hitting the skin again and again it was painful I just wanted to you know sit there at that point of time I had gained about 75 kgs and every day you know I felt more and more water is filling in my body I don't know what is happening and and then they said we will have to do a kidney biopsy to assertain your condition and they did the kidney biopsy that entire feeling of being hospitalized I had never been hospitalized and uh I've been quite a fit person all my life being a trained classical dancer and a lot into sports and all I'm a black belt in ta condo so all of that and I was here I was you know on a stretcher being taken to you know the the room where they were to do my biopsy anyways I landed there but that was a very so um I mean a very um uh you know a moment of Awakening A Moment Of I don't know what is happening to me but I was just like an audience to you know whatever it was happening in my life so all that experience of being taken on the stretcher of been putting they put me on the bed and this machine comes down and you know they do the biopsy it was scary and then they confirmed it was membranous nephropathy so this was in 2021 so then began a journey of U rediscovery I would say and a journey that was a fight against time because uh doctors asked me to keep checking my 24 hours protein Ura and I had multiple conversations with doctors in four cities in four Hospitals now my my first thing you know I I'm sorry to say but I have grown up not you know with the belief that if my body is sick it will heal itself and maybe because of that I never felt sick I don't know why and I had never been very fond of doctors or very OD of doctors you know like people are especially in India so uh you know I went and and my priority then became meeting doctors everywhere that I went I wanted to meet doctors I wanted to talk to doctors and I would want to ask them why did it happen to me tell me the root that tell me the cause tell me why it happened and how can I go back what did I do wrong so not that I was eating processed foods all I was always a health conscious person yes I may be high on carbs but I but not very high and not you know junk food at all and not processed foods at all but uh none of the colas and eating out and all of that you know nothing I mean a normal diet that people call usually healthy which is homecooked but definit Ely not junk so I really wanted to know what did I do wrong and how have I reached here to a space where the doctors are standing in front of me and it was very intimidating that they they're telling me that the next line of treatment is going to be steroids they're going to be putting you on stereoids and the first question that I asked them out of shock was what next if it doesn't work what are you going to do to me and they said you know the way your protein UA is it's it's a massive leak and if it is contained uh you know by introducing stereoids then fine otherwise we will have to be looking at renal transplant so this is the story you know the first part of the story and the second part is you know my journey where I ran away from there I took a uturn and my first thought process was Dr JY that if I have to die because I had I did know a little bit about what stereoids could do and renal transplants have you know even now when I was doing my research I found that only 15% 50% of the cases um you know are a success and 50% have a huge chance of relapsing membranous nephropath so but then when I was doing my research uh you know the first thing uh that I wanted to know was how to go back and if I have to die I will not going for a for a for a renal transplant I will go down fighting I I will do something you know I will try uh to at least contain this at least arrest this not let it progress if I can but I will not die because a renal transplant and you know post transplant a messed up life or it didn't work out or it relapsed so that was my uh thought process and the journey the uturn that I took from there was a pure leap of Fai and thankful to people like you to Dr Shan Baker to Dr kenberry to people in India like ano Singh and Shashi kangar who are showing the light to people and uh you know that's how I took the u-turn at that point of time the second part of the story um if you want me to continue I'll just continue so this is uh yeah so then uh should I go on yes please do yeah definitely okay okay so when they asked me to you know consider Reno transplant and I already know a few cases in my family course I was a I was very small then who had a messed up transplant and nothing worked out and they eventually passed away so that is all the information that I had at that point of time as a lay person I definitely didn't want to go in for steroids and I definitely didn't want to go in for renal transplants and kind it was kind of a shock it was you know um Awakening for me you know it was like really you know living in a moment where you know um that you could be looking at the end of the tunnel I mean end of your life if this doesn't work out if I just walk into you know stereoids and if I just walk into renal transplants uh transplant you know you never know that you never you are never able to come out of that what if it messes up I mean there's no guarantee and uh if I don't do that then what is what is the way out for me so there and began my journey of self-discovery and I was ready to do anything and I just just forgot the doctors and what they told me and I had dived into research and I just type membranous nephropathy everywhere I think I read up all the literature but there was not much um I think there was one case in Dr Shan Baker's um community and and but that that was you know that was all that I found but my common sense in in the meanwhile I had huge um uh fro massive fro in the urine all this while and it had been increasing and I had lost all my hair I had patches ball patches now that you can see here these were all bald patches and I was embarrassed to the core it was loss of self self-esteem for a person who was so outgoing and vious and you know always at the helm of things I actually became a reuse and these ball patches and the skin had sunk because you know there was nothing to hold on to for the skin so it started looking like a you know sunken face and all of that and there was hair all over the place all over my house so when the cleaner came she found a lot of hair so that went on and on and on I mean it was not ready to stop and I used to like the the hair had receded now you can see it's come fly but the hairline had receded till till here and it was such a blow on the self-esteem and uh you know I cannot tell you that so the first thing that I uh you know out of Common Sense uh that if I'm having so much of uh protein leak and uh you know I should be able to and I'm looking like this I should be able to put that protein back into my body and started with that thought of course the doctors never told me to increase the protein all the advice that they put on my prescription was dietary salt intake has to be reduced that's all that's the protocol that they gave me so I and I kept asking this is this is this really boggles me I kept asking them because I was desperate anything that I can do anything that that I can eat or stop eating you know to arrest this to go back and said no less protein and less salt so I asked them I said is it a less is it a salt problem if I reduce the salt will it go go away and they had no answer literally they had no answer I call this kind of borderline illiteracy that you know you're not able to answer people who trust you who are asking you what you are supposed to know anywh so actually there was no resolution given and then the common the the only thought was that I should be able to put this protein back into my body if I'm looking so old and Haggard and I've lost my hair and my skin has sunk down and I should be able to put that protein back to look better this was the thought and I was a vegetarian at that point of time so I naturally started you know um putting my vegetarian sources of protein together which in India is commonly cottage cheese which is paner and Hunker and cheese and all of this but I could not do it because uh it was too time taking it was too complex it was a daily job to be done in order to get that protein in your body and uh it was too complex for me and here I wanted a sorted out something uh which didn't take a lot of time which was simple to do and the only thing that and in that process when I started uh reading about carnivore you know went to sha Baker's uh Dr sha Baker's page Dr Ken's page and so many people lately I found you luckily so you know all these people U were talking about Carnival and I could understand and why meat over vegetarian sources of protein because it was much simpler it saved me the time it um uh saved me the effort in the kitchen I was not really in the frame of mind for cooking you know at that point of time to make cottage cheese every day to make Hunker every day I just dump in 500 G of 1 kg of meat into a slow cooker or something and you know just eat it and it's as simple as that so then uh you know I turned back to Carnival you know I would call it my roots because that's how I grew up and it didn't take me any time I mean I think I switched in one day I came back to mbai from my parents place and I went carore that's my story hey everyone really happy to announce a new sponsor for the show and for everybody down in Australia Stockman staks who are delivering high quality grass-fed and finished pasture raised beef and other meats flash frozen and vacuum sealed to Door something that I've been enjoying a lot of myself recently as well they also have a great range of specialty items such as high fat keto mints and carnivore beef and organs mints with liver kidneys and beef art as well so use code chaffy today for free order of beef mints or another special specialy gift along with your order at Stockman stakes. comom and I'll see you over there thanks guys well that's that's an amazing story and I I think it's it's unfortunately um at least the first part of that is going to be very typical one where people come into some sort of you know kidney disease or some sort of disease in general like um membranous theopathy and their doctors just say like yeah just take the pills and just wait until you your kidne is completely dissolved you be amazed Dr chy that they had put me on diuretics and uh I had to take it in the morning and in the evening I did that and every 10 minutes I was going to the washroom there was so much water retention I had gained 20 kgs when I was hospitalized I had you know I have shown the pictures in in shashikant podcast and then my legs was swollen like anything I think somebody put it out just I I think ano had put it out on Twitter these pictures so I'm hospitalized and my legs were Sten they were like elephants legs and even though I was on diuretics every evening I used to take it and keep running to the washroom and every morning I used to wake up with more edema more fluid more retention you know I don't know where that was coming from so uh the doctors as I said you know they never gave me any protocol in terms of diet and they asked me to keep testing it you know keep testing it every month because this is massive and I was scared to hell you know so I kept testing and once I went carnivore I think in one one and a half months the first physical changes that I started noticing was less hair stwn across the house that was you know less hairfall and the froth in urine had gone down massively um it went on decreasing with time and uh the skin that had become you know Haggard and um all of that that started restoring itself out so these are the physical changes that I noticed but when I kept testing you know across uh many months um the protein Ura started coming down but I started feeling much better even before I mean numbers do not you don't need to look at numbers to know that you're feeling good and I had started noticing those changes in me and that was a huge relief and cut to one year when I went back to Bangalore and to the same doctor exactly on the same date I think uh one year later and I in the same doctor I showed him my 24-hour proin Ura report and everything else and uh he wrote A Few tests which was done and then he wrote on his prescription spontaneous remission MH so that was you know that kind of you know made me ask him I said what is spontaneous remission because still yes yesterday you were telling me you would have to go for renal transplant and today you're saying and you didn't give me any solution and you said you know the the path forward is this steroids and renal transplants and now you're saying spontaneous transission in between something happened would do you want to know about it so he said yeah what did you do so I said I put myself on a carnivore diet which is an all meat diet so he he was himself was a vegetarian so he was kind of stunned he said really I said yes and you would not believe even I would not believe if somebody told me but this has happened to me and and I have completely reversed it to the point that you have to write spontaneous remission and we had a small laugh over that but he was actually shocked he said you know we have not been taught this and I would have never you know maybe it worked but I would have never recommended this to do so this was our conversation yeah well it's not that he was a bit at least a bit uh open-minded about it did he did he look into it at all and and think about doing that with his future patients no I don't think he was interested in that at all no but but that's I think the you I mean doctors like you or you know the doctors that we interact with or work with or talk to on social media and people who are working on G through carnivore and LCM they are different genre all together I I don't expect doctors in fact I would have been shocked if he had asked me about the diet and he had wanted to understand me no he would not do that because he's very stuck in his um uh you know medical protocol he's not interested in what's working he's interested in introducing the protocols that he has been Tau uh taught in you know in his medical school so that's why I call this borderline illiteracy illiteracy because you're not you know able to answer you're not able to give solutions to people you're just pushing pills and this therapy and that therapy and this transplant and that transplant you know why don't you ever talk about the root cause because they never uh were able to give me a solution they could not even answer why it has happened forget pinpointing the exact cause but at least you could have talked about it he said that it's idiopathy yeah so idiopathic is that's what I'm saying you know so the borderline illiteracy is idiopathy you know when you cannot when you cannot explain anything when you cannot answer when you cannot assure people and the moment you look at symptoms you start you know pushing pills and you know nobody's interested in you know bettering the patients people are interested doctors are interested in the entire sick care and Industry is interested in making somebody out there a millionaire and a billionaire because who's healing on pills yeah yeah um it's it is pretty sad though you when you when you see something like that as a doctor it it does behoove you to to look into it I mean even if even you think like okay well maybe that was just a fluke but have you ever seen that before you know have you ever seen it just spontaneously resolved like that if if someone has done a clear made a change and maybe if it's something weird it's like well you know I guess it's it's um you know if it's if you think it's so outlandish it's like someone was just like well you know I I I I rubbed my quartz crystals three times every Sunday and and I you know and I prayed to this you know raggedy and doll that I had since I was a kid he's like all right well that's that's cute but um yeah I'm not gonna look into that you know but you know it's um it is something that that something like a maybe not even the carnivour diet but the KE enic diet I mean that that has thousands of studies that have shown significant benefit to specific medical outcomes including kidney disease and kidney disorders and also autoimmunity and that's what people don't understand that they're actually are a number of studies that show a clear and distinct link between autoimmunity and and diet and I I've run into this a couple times with doctors say well you can't say that you can't recommend this to to patients because or I can't recommend it to patients because I I you know there's no there's no literature on the subject there's no studies done have you looked though because there actually are there actually a number of studies especially in autoimmunity and and and certainly in kidney disease so um you do have to look but you know a lot of people just dismissed because it wasn't taught to them in residency it wasn't taught to them in medical school therefore it doesn't exist but of course yes correct even now even now Dr JY whenever I post a success story and most of my you know times are as I said autoimmune condition so there was this um specific uh case that I posted on under which you know doctors came and you know they started talking so this was a lupus case uh lady um she had been diagnosed with lupus 22 years back when she was in her 7th or eighth grade doctors had put her on steroids right then and she had been on stereoids now 22 years later now everything her Ana was positive and you know every month she landed up in hospital emergency because of stomach P pain and cramps once she comes on to a carnivore protocol this never happens again I mean she doesn't go to has to you know visit the hospital even once that stomach cramp the pain everything is gone she's feeling so much better she was you know she us to have have headaches and this and that all screwed up cut she could not digest things and you know in I think 3 months four months you know around that but we published the results some in on Twitter much later after six months and when I when she had you know she gave me a testimonial which I tweeted doctors came under it and the most people who are the most problem I think with people getting healthier doctors you know they would come under every tweet and tell you this is not possible lopus cannot go and you know it's always there it will come back and you know carnivore is not the Cure so this happens typically typically when I post a case and a success story they would inevitably come out come under the tweet and they would write the same so instead of writing this cannot happen why can't you ask how did you do it where is that Spirit of inquiry I mean why are you dismissing something a testimonial that a person who has better herself is giving out it is not me who's saying that for example if I had membranous neopath I I'm I'm I'm a big vocal proponent of the carnivore diet I've been on the carnivore since the last three months anybody saying any otherwise because I've done all the jig I went to the doctors in four cities I've had discussions after discussions if I had not turned carnivore they would have put me on steroids and they would have pushed me to renal transplant yeah yeah so why why should I I mean talking of studies I mean you can see a person bettering you can see all his symptoms going away you can see him for the first time or her for the first time in 22 years not going to the hospital emergency because of a massive stomach cramp and pain she has come off all her steroids and yet I don't know what the problem is it is so difficult to accept you know that somebody else is giving results while we have blown uh of half our lives and you know half our money studying something that eventually is not giving results yeah it's funny too because they say well you no you can't that didn't fix the lupus yes they come off their medication yes they've come they all symptoms but it'll come back it's like well that presumes that you know what causes lupus you say okay well what causes lupus in oh we don't know well then you don't know what's going to fix it then do you because you just don't know and and that's okay that you don't know we don't know a lot of things but you can't say no that definitely won't work because if you don't because that presumes that you understand you know the mechanisms in which this is caused and if you don't understand how this is caused then you can't say how it's going to be solved either well no no it's just a fluk well or maybe it's addressing the underlying root cause which is eliminating out toxins from the body that your body is making antibod body's towards and you're getting cross reaction with your body your and your your different tissues are getting hit in the crossfire um that is a very plausible ideology and when we when I put this put my patients on a carnivore diet who have autoimmune issues now some autoimmune issues you can you can track the antibodies and some you can't but say in a very very good example of this is Hashimoto I hasimoto yes so many patients with Oto it's very easy to track their antibodies and I see them and so I see patients that I actually just had a patient today and um I was trying to get her to go onto a carnivore diet she was sort of a bit wishy washy about like I don't know if I want to do that she was taking different medications and all this sort of stuff and then um saw her again a couple months after that and she and her antibodies had gone up by a couple hundred points and I was able to convince her at that point to go onto a carnivore diet and now um you know a few months after that her her antibodies would come down 150 points right so it's it's this clear line and you know this this clear sort of uh reaction that when they go on a carnivore diet they remove plants from their diet antibodies come down then they slip up and they add something back in antibodies come right back up and then they come back down it's it's it's a very clear relationship and um and I even pointed this out to her as say say look we already have a couple data points to sort of up and down based on your behavior and your choices um if you want you know we can we can test this a bit more thoroughly and we can get your you know you go very strict you know line diet you know just just red meat and water and then we'll check your antibodies and then like right when you know you're going to have like a birthday party or something where you want to go out and have a dinner and a this and some drinks and then we'll see you know and then we'll check your antibodies a couple days later and we'll be able to see and then you go back on it and we'll see if you want to do that she's like nope no that's okay I'm I see it yeah so it's um we do see this and so the idea that we wouldn't even be curious anymore no it didn't come from fizer therefore you know I don't want to know about it that is you know it's pretty sad that that Spirit of inquiry has died in most doctors whereas in the 1800s you know people were just so interested like let's figure this out let's see you know looking at interesting cases and trying to study them and try to figure out why this is the outlier when all these other cases went the other way try to figure that out that's how you figure things out that's how you cure diseases that's how you advance human knowledge not just sitting on your and waiting for someone else to do it and badm mouthing the people who are trying to do it it is absolutely ridiculous like if you don't if you don't try different things you'll never get you'll never get new Solutions you'll never get new treatments and you'll never push the boundaries of of human knowledge no they came to me as well and you know a lot of people when I posted my um uh you know remission and you know when I started practicing myself and I had come from this background already where I had put my autoimmune under emission and uh you know when I posted that a lot of doctors came you know to write and it's always the doctors you know this goes under emission on its own yeah so I should have waited you know till the time you know gotten a kidney renal transplant done and at what point of time would you you know would have would this have gone under remission I no answer but just the ego to contest something somebody else is given result it's not the fils it's not the white it's not the education that you got you know um that you paid for has not gotten you any results as Dr Anin keeps saying it's very embarrassing and depressing to be a doctor and I had asked him the question and not to mock doctors they are good people they're trying to uh you know uh do something but you know they're not doing it in the right direction and they don't want to know that is the problem in India and U you know rarely will you find a doctor admitting that yes we've been wrong as Dr Gary fet also said in our metabolic Health conference time that you said sorry time that you accept that we have what we have been doing is not the right thing it's not giving any results so it's I think difficult for them to accept that we are trained for that and we should be the one uh you know they should be coming to or talking to but they're doing complete antithesis of what uh you know we've told them don't eat meat reduce salt and they've gone just the opposite and it's given them results I think that's a big blow to the Eco mhm so they told me you know it was supposed it would have come into remission come under remission on its own I said yeah really at what point of time mhm I should have waited really to be taken for a renal transplant and then oh sorry it didn't come under yeah well like all the other people that just go into remission because that you know because that's that's what normally happens with these sorts of things they just spontaneously go into remission on their own um you don't even need to treat autoimmune conditions apparently according to these people because they just treat themselves of course that's not the case these things get worse and they continue to get worse and so that's a not only a cop out but it doesn't even it doesn't even um you know hold up to the the minor you know the beest scrutiny of the the natural history of these diseases they get worse and like you say people end up losing their kidneys and having to get um kidney transplants so so clearly they don't just go into random spontaneous remission and you know the thing is too is that we used to you know as scientists and researchers um if you had a hypothesis you you would you would try to develop a a an experiment that could prove it wrong and that that was what real science was you you didn't try to like develop a study that showed that you were right you tried to develop a study that could prove that it's wrong and so one thing is that they could do if they wanted to try to prove this is wrong is try try it with their patients well it's like well I think you're wrong okay well then you can you can show that very easily try it put your patients on it with with membran isopathy or other autoimmune issues put them on just a pure red meat and water diet and see what happens and and sure get you know 10 people 100 people plenty of people in India I'm sure there's a lot of people to try it with and then prove me wrong you know get your case serious get your patient you know um perspective cohort say okay we've got 20 patients we're going to put them on a carnivore diet to show that this does nothing please yeah do that do that yeah please do yeah and it's but they won't I mean this is hilarious I mean at least ask us what we did and it's as simple as you know we we are very happy to we've already we are working with a lot of doctors a lot of them are our clients as well and uh we have no U you know qualms or you know has elv and working with doctors in fact we very happy and but then there is a section of the you know of doctors that would just come in you know kind of be very rude to you and would not accept that and don't accept what I am saying read the testimonial of the person who saying it herself yeah yeah and if you were so capable she would not have been on stereoids for 22 years yeah definitely so um yeah so sounds like none of these doctors actually learned anything unfortunately but um what about other people in your in your sphere of influence people that you've worked with has have other people come around um from your story yeah in fact uh you know Dr chy after Dr sha Baker's podcast even till today I keep getting emails and I keep getting DMS in my um you know in my Twitter and Instagram it has I guess uh created some positive impact I would say I don't know to what level but I am so glad so glad to be able to tell my story and you know it I just did what I felt was right and you know I just defied the medical protocol I was not even sure if I'll live you know to see the next the or something like that because it was around that time that I was diagnosed with the condition so I was I completely turned around my health and everything and I'm the biggest proponent because this has not come through me uh come to me through any doctor through some other case that I saw it was purely my research and I you know by default I came to doctor Shan Baker and kenberry and all of you you know were doing such wonderful work later on but at that point of time it was a lone fight I had nobody to turn back to turn to and to refer uh you know any literature that I could read it just came and hit me out of nowhere so uh now that I see people who write to me and who tell me that you know it's very inspiring even at D life in our community in India I mean lot of people have turned carnivore I'm so happy that people who had never eaten meat you know this gradually because they want to get onto something which is you know the appropriate diet for you and they had seen my case and they tried a little bit with eggs and then they introduced fish and you know lamb mins or something like that so even at D life I mean I'm very happy to say that you know I who was earlier a vegetarian and had some eggs is now a pure carnivore so the impact Dr chaffy has been that uh you know this uh my own success story and then uh you know doing you know some podcasts and very important ones at that has spread the story and at D life I was just talking about ano who's the founder of D life and he was a vegetarian with some eggs and you know all of that usually that's how people in India are and when I came and started talking about the carnivore diet and how it had reversed my autoimmune and this this started kind of spreading like the good news and a lot of people came on to to the wagon and ano is now a full-blown carnivore and that's my biggest win you know that you know somebody who has founded the lchf movement in India he's himself a carnival so I think by um you know that way it has influenced a lot of people for good and I'm happy when they come back and tell me that you know we bet are there's no more bloating or there's no more joint pain or there's no more this and that so every time you know they come back and tell me this you know I say silent thank you for you know to to whatever power that you know drove me towards carore and it was as I say moment of Awakening it's nothing short of a spiritual awakening actually it's not even a diet it's something that you know just happened and it has completely changed the course of my life and from there to now when I'm helping more and more people especially people with autoimmune conditions you know I thank that leap of faith that I took and every time that I see people I thank people like you and so many other who are working in this space and guiding us you know the movement that we have started this is not going to die down because uh you know there are no studies or this and that no excuses but look at the real evidence evidence the mountain of Herculean mountain of evidence that's right in front of you you cannot deny that forget studies I am one I am one you know who uh you can call me n is equal to one or whatever A lot of people wrote that n is equal to one but that n is equal to one has multiplied now many n is equal to one yeah so yeah Millions now yeah and um and when are a clinician and you try something and it works do you need a study to then say like well you know yes it works and every time I apply this to my patients I get the same results and it keeps working but um you know it's better than the standard of care and it's saving their lives but until there's a study out I don't know probably probably got to stop like well that's actually irresponsible I mean that goes back to hypoc where he said that um you know you had to practice you know um you had to you had to practice based on the results not based on dogma and religion you didn't just pray to Apollo you had to do things that actually had demonstrated uh positive results and so yes you can do that from a study if someone else has done a study and showing hey we took 4,000 people and we had these results great that's a that's a a you know good starting point for you can say okay well I'll maybe try and apply apply that to my patient population but if you have a if you have a study that says well this intervention is going to be really good for your patients and you apply that intervention and it gets bad results well it doesn't matter what the study says you're not going to do it anymore and so doesn't matter what other studies say if you find something that does work well then you need to keep doing that I mean that goes back to hypocrates that you should do that that you you do the treat that works and eating meat doesn't hurt people it doesn't kill them um the whole saturated fat cholesterol that's a that's a lie that's been roundly disproven time and time again for decades and it's time for that nonsense to die so I just I don't even I don't even care to engage in that anymore because it's it's never been proven that saturated fat or cholesterol cause harm so you know I'm just not even going to entertain that anymore so meat is good for you it doesn't cause any harm so there's no there's no harm in providing that for people there's no harm in excluding plants because plants do have toxins that's an objective fact meat does not that's an objective fact and so when you apply that and you see it help them well then then you keep doing that it doesn't matter what A study says all a study can do is help guide your practice help guide your decision making but once you make that decision you have to deal with the results and if you have positive results well then you apply that to the next patient and you get positive results and you apply it again and you apply it again and apply it again and if you keep getting positive results well then you would be it would be unethical to not do that anymore that's sort of the position I'm in now because I've already applied this to so many patients and I've seen it work every single time it would be immoral and unethical of me if I didn't apply this to my future patient as well and and that's what any any doctorine clinician can do right now you don't need to wait for you know fiser to put out a study you can just take a look and say okay other people are doing this there's enough there's enough um data out there to make me interested in this you apply to your patient you see people you give them informed consent say hey this is what I'm thinking I think it might help you see what happens and if it works great and if it does doesn't no harm done you go on to the next thing and that's fine and that that is what you do we do this all the time in medicine we have our differential diagnosis and we have our our treatment we say okay well this is what we think it is so we're going to treat you with this o doesn't work okay next one on the list now we'll try this one o doesn't work next one down on the list why don't you just throw meat in there somewhere and um and carnivore diet and and if it doesn't work okay on to the next thing but you know for a lot of these things it does work for diabet iabetes it works for autoimmunity it works um it's for mental health issues it works there's so many things for which this works for Alzheimer's dementia these sorts of things it works um autism we're seeing this now too with ket high fat meat-based ketogenic diets are improving autism outcomes um this is something that that is readily available to people in at least most of the world and and it's something easy it's free you can do it on your own you don't need special permission you don't need drugs you don't need a prescription you don't need a whole you don't need to spend $10,000 a month on these uh different you know brand new novel drugs it's just something you just do you just you just buy different things instead you know if it's if it's if money is difficult well it's uh you know eggs are cheap chicken cheap these sorts of things are cheap and um and it's typically a lot less expensive than the medications and so it it behooves any doctor to at least give this a try for their patients because if it helps then you know that's that's your job is to get them the help that they need and um holding back from that I think is is a bit ignorant like you said but also a bit cowardly honestly that um you know that you're not you're not you're not willing to stick your neck out a little bit to help your patient um that's what you're there for you know you're there to do whatever you can to help your patient and if it's something that is not going to cause harm and could help them and could help them better than anything else they're doing you have a duty of care to that patient to to at least try it hey guys just want to take a second to thank our sponsor at carnivore bar I don't promote many products because honestly all you need to be healthy is to just eat meat for those times that you're out hiking road tripping or stuck at work and you want nutritious snack that is just meat fat and salt if you want it the carnivore bar is a great option so I like this product not because it's just pure meat but also because I want the carnivore Market to thrive as well and the more we support meat only products the more meat only products there will be available in the mainstream so if this sounds like something you'd like to get behind check it out using my discount code Anthony to get 10% off which also applies to subscriptions giving you 25% off total all right thanks guys but I was saying that you know while I was car War while I was a vegetarian I also had other issues that you know U that cropped up in those 10 years of being vegetarian one was plant fitis and the other was Dental issues and of course the weight yo-yoing was you know always there so um I had U uh done some dental treatment and they said that you will have to go for root canal and all of that as far as planter Fishers was concerned you know I had talked to three doctors about that as well and they had all suggested me surgery when I had membranous nephropathy you know after that you know at the end of the 10 or 12 year spectrum and I was focusing on membranous nephropathy and taking more protein and putting this under emission my focus was something else but in the interim all of these other health issues sorted themselves out completely so I was you know imagine I'm what if I had done a surgery for my plant of fitis so something which is as simple as a dietary intervention you know you are the medical protocol is actually non-responsive I mean everything for everything you're pushing pills for everything you're pushing surgeries which is as simple uh you know as you know as it can be resolved on a dietary Intervention which is what exactly happened when I turned carnivore till now you know I've had no Dental issues three years now the plant of Fes is completely gone earlier I could not get up and uh you know and start walking you know get up from my bed and start walking I would take 10 20 minutes to put my feet down it was that painful and now it's not there yeah yeah nice that's amazing um so now with with as your you know metabolic health coach how does that work when you're in India when the predominant you know predominantly people are vegetarian and um you know but when they come in with issues that you think that like a ketogenic carnivore diet can help uh especially things like autoimmune issues how does that work I think in India what has happened is that there's a vertical split of the Indian society as I we were talking before the session as well vertical split of the Indian Society based on a highly I would say sociopolitical political religious polarization of the idea of misplaced idea of puritanism so you know that is called vegetarianism in India so it's an extension of I would say the division um you know of the society uh and with the belief that meat is impure so coming from that background and when I'm dealing Now with uh you know people with autoimmune conditions especially uh you know they they expect me to you know wave my magic we and you know provide provide them a solution and a lot of them still write I mean they keep writing you know can you come can you not come up with something that can help us also so the point is I don't want to help you but how do you help someone who doesn't want to help themselves your entire problem is the toxicity of the food that you eating which is grains and plantbased and you know as you as you already know I me Dairy is you know is a no no on autoimune most people react to that and you know that is out and a lot of things are out so the only thing that works best on an on a autoimmune condition is the carnivore diet Elimination Diet now if you are grain and plantbased and you are not ready to eat meat what do you eat what do you put these people on so a lot of noise about uh vegans you know uh curing you know inverted commas curing the the autoimmune condition or autoimmune conditions being cured on or put under emission on a vegetarian diet maybe you you may see some relief for some time but what about the deficiencies long term that it would create and because of the deficiencies you know multiple or multi-dimensional problems uh that you would face you know so so I am very clear in my practi is and I have written this about this on Twitter as well if you are a vegetarian you know please change your food ideology food politics and understand the science and if it has benefited so many people try it if it doesn't help that's fine but it will help but there are a lot of people Dr J are not ready to listen who only want to be on a vegetarian D if I show you pictures I mean I'm sure you must have seen I mean Legend planers people are filled with that and they don't want to go carnivore when I have a case where she's bettered immensely on a carnivore diet and her spots have healed and they have lessened and all of that but every day there are inquiries about you know uh wanting to enroll and wanting to sign up but they're not ready to turn Caro those who do they see results so I am very clear if there is a protocol I will of course I do want to help you but in the interim there are a lot of people who also who are ready to be carnivore or who are meat heers I would rather focus my energies there you know because I know it will give them quicker results then you know kind of investing my time into first changing an ideology first changing a religious belief first changing the food politics and then you know bringing them on to something which may or may not yeah um that's the thing too it's like when when people say like well can you do something for us you know it's like well can can you figure out you know something that can help us you know that's like that's like saying you know someone who's who's an alcoholic and you say well it's like well you know your problems are coming from alcoholism it's just like well yeah but can you you know and and you have to get rid of alcohol you have to stop drinking he like well can you can you come up with a cure that doesn't H involve me stopping alcohol it's like well no not really when when alcohol is is the problem that you're having and uh um yeah but that makes sense I mean obviously culturally this is something that can be very hard for people do you ever um you know try to get people like on ketogenic vegetarian diets is that something that that can help with in certain cases that is yeah I have I work with many people who are vegetarians and who have put their diabetes under remission or other metabolic conditions also under remission because you know D life was founded on the principles of also helping Indian vegetarians now they eat the they would include eggs also a lot of people so that's not very difficult to work around with problem is uh you know the the ones who are you know autoimmune condition but want to be on a vegetarian diet that's the issue but for the rest we have we work with a lot of vegetarian clients for diabetes for hypertension Patty liver all of those metabolic syndromes and we have great results of that as well so people usually do understand and you know a lot of vegetarians do agree to eat eggs also so they already eat eggs a lot of people but those who understand the science they you know vegetarians are okay with introducing eggs they take Dairy so it's not very difficult why Auto protocol becomes difficult because um even eggs react forget Dairy even eggs react in a lot of people so you have to be on an Elimination Diet I've had a case of ulcerative colitis and uh she react to everything eggs chicken you know fish and uh the the minimum spices that she could put in her meat even she even reacted to that finally you know we had to put her on a meat water Sol that and that was working that that's working yeah very good um something we were talking about uh before we came on air which I thought was quite interesting something I've mentioned a couple of times before um but obviously you know that's just coming from me but um the the idea that that people in India um have always been vegetarian is actually not really the case you know some people say well you know if you know we should be eating meat well look at look at um or if we shouldn't be vegetarian we look at India they've been vegetarian for thousands of or they even say they've been vegan for thousands of years which is not true um and and look at them and my point is typically yeah look at them they have some of the highest metabolic disease rates in the world some of the highest diabetes rates in the world um so do look at them it's a it's sort of an anti-blue Zone this is an area that is uh is quite unwell um but what um you know can you tell us a bit about that about the origins of this idea that that um India is vegetarian and how true that is yeah so I as as we had discussed I talked about this on Dr Shan Baker's podcast as well and I really want people to know this is a false uh you know propaganda that has been pushed in India now if starting from the ancient times if you look at the most ancient and classic literature that we have ayura ayura mentions meat which is mamasa as a nutritious food and also as a medicament now these are the sages the Ries the you know the the the gods that you worship and these literature uh are written by them and you've only highlighted the vegetarian section and you've completely pushed on the carpet the portion where it mentions meat as not only a medicament but as a nutritious diet right from peacock meat to rabbit meat to whatever meat you can imagine is mentioned there and I've shared the literature also so many times around I think it's a it's with a lot of people now on the internet and you know in real life and everywhere so it mentions meat for all ailments including autoimmune condition H and and yes it does and uh but it lays stress on what kind of meat what gender of the meat um you know should be eaten what portion of the meat and how it should be cooked so these are the um the the rules to be followed because uh they have gone into great depths but uh the point is meat is mentioned and every kind of meat is even crocodile meat I think is mentioned so imagine if peacock meat and Rabbid meat and everything is mentioned how is India a vegetarian country I mean are you when are you talk what is this time period that you're talking about because right from the start we have this classic we have this literature that talks about meat now a lot of people talk about meat being impure from coming from a religious you know perspective but I think that's just the uh you know the the momentum which has picked up in the last 100 years 200 years maybe and it started with the British Raj and uh I think before that it was not so much vegetarianism was not a virtue signaling it had not become a kind of a propaganda there may have been people who are vegetarian and there's a certain segment that is uh that has been vegetarian or I know they have been vegetarian but you know this really started um I think became more obvious during the British R when of course you were enslaved and you were put on a grains and beans diet and that's what slaves are supposed to eat I mean why would they even make provision for you to eat the most nutritious diet so meat was largely kept for people who were were ruling us and thus the propagation of a meat and uh grain and bean based diet and plant-based diet and starting from there plus I would say a lot of media and mushrooming of uh New Age gurus you know who all propagate vegetarianism so I want to go back and talk about those gurus have written the Epic literature of ayurveda which Pur Puritans talk about let's talk about meet there so why not talk about the original gurus you know why talk about gurus of mushroom now of course I don't don't say that you know everybody was uh nonvegetarian or eating meat there were certain sections of the society who were comfortable eating um vegetarian food but more than that the history of meat in India has been very old and there's been excavation in the site of rakii which is an old old archaeological site and haraa civilization and all of that and you would be amazed to know Dr JY that the utensils discovered from there had traces of lipids so and and people are just not you know you cannot push under the carpet I mean even speaking religiously now I have had a relig spiritual background and anybody worshiping Shiva or shaki you know in the tantric sphere has to animal sacrifice or Bali is a very sacred ritual done to invoke the god of the Goddess so what are we talking about it may have been a small section of the society who were comfortable eating meat but combine that with the British Raj and with the propaganda of veganism and you know with all this media coming in and mushrooming of new gurus and you know this idea of uh being a purist you know if you're eating veget vegetables you're a purist and meat is bad so this this entire Amal amalgamation of screwed up ideas I would say or you know misinformed views have come up in the last few uh you know years or the last few decades propaganda against meat was never this strong and propaganda in favor of vegetarianism was never this strong I mean every day it's growing I mean it's getting stronger and stronger but then it's just a voice I would say you are you can scream as much as you want but the evidence of meat lies in the history of ancient India you cannot deny yeah yeah and that that's something i' I've um You Know spoken to others about you to my friend uh you know Rudy's a doctor here we worked in neurosurgery together now he's a GP and um he same sort of background you know he's from India or his family's from India he was born here in Australia but his parents par were were um vegetarian just for religious cultural reasons he tried going vegetarian vegan for health reasons he he wasn't feeling very well and he was only his late 20s he was young guy should be very healthy and he didn't feel healthy and he didn't have very good energy he would uh so he went you know vegetarian then he went vegan and he's trying to fix his health he's trying to do the the best diet ever which is you know void all meat and he's getting less and less well really bad brain fog really tired all the time um you know walking around the hospital he would get tired just going up a flight of stairs he he if he was going multiple flights of stairs he'd have to rest in between flights of stairs he couldn't go up two flights of stairs as a 28-year-old Slender Man you know it wasn't like he was he was overweight or anything like that and when we started talking about this he became very interested because his his motivation was just his health he saw the the the merits of this and he changed the carnivore dramatically improved his health his brain fog went away he could think for the first time in a few years and realized he hated neurosurgery and wanted to get out of it so he ended up quitting and um and going into GP but after that he started looking into the you know the origins of this looking at some of the the ancient text and he was telling me then that um a lot of these the ancient religious texts spoke specifically about how important it was and vital it was to eat beef in particular and how it was it was extremely healthy extremely important that that it certain uh cultural events or you know social Gatherings or certain people come to visit you were required to sacrifice a cow or a bull and and serve it as as meet to your guests and then what he was saying was that maybe in the 11 Century or 1100 years ago anyway about a millennia ago that the that um Hinduism started becoming or sorry that Buddhism started coming up prevalence and started becoming more popular and it was sort of like a a uh a political sort of movement that everyone was like well you know Buddhism is all about you know peace and tranquility and all this and they're like no no no no we're we're really the religion of Peace look we don't even eat animals and you know the is they sweep away bugs and things like that and that it was like a political sorry to interrupt you I I've been with the Buddhist months for four months uh you know while I was doing my college and I didn't get a hostel so I had to temporarily stay in a men's hostel and where you know these guys were staying Buddhist eat every Buddhist that I know and I had seen there they do eat meat if people and now they will start debating about this after this podcast but please go and read I mean I urge people to go and read the Buddha died of eating contaminated meat yeah it is mentioned and you know like in every religion it happens you know there would come up a section that will debate it and this and that but the Buddha always said you know you eat whatever you get in your Pika which is you know you go around with your bowl and whatever people put in that you are supposed to eat that it is a state of choicelessness and the buha actually died of contamin of eating contaminated pork interesting interesting yeah uh yeah I didn't know that um in in India largely you know I would also attribute it towards the time of the independence now Mahatma Gandhi was a big figure and he was a vegetarian and he sang songs of you know nonviolence and all of that but tell me uh the very idea of Indian non-violence with regards to meet is paradoxical because one who doesn't know that even a vegan or a vegetarian that entails murders you know millions of murders done and then what kind of nonviolence is this when your body is sick it is uh you know crippled it is asking for help it is diseased you are talking about nonviolence on somebody else but you're inflicting violence on yourself I think this is a very masochistic way of existence where you are very happy inflicting pain on yourself because if your priority if you're the responsibility of whatever you're preaching is has to be done from yourself you're not doing that but you're talking about the same principle applying to somebody else so you want to be nonviolent to animals while inflicting violence on yourself seeing yourself sick but you will not change that ideology and keep talking about nonviolence this is absolutely brilliantly paradoxic yeah absolutely well yeah and it's um you know just because you you're you're not causing the harm and you're not doing it yourself and you you don't see it and it's sort of one step removed doesn't mean that it's not happening you know the the amount of harm and damage to the environment and to animals from monocropping plant agriculture that doesn't go away just because you know you're you're not directly killing the animals for food animals are dying either way it's actually nicer to eat them for for food and at least have their their death go for something useful and meaningful rather than just dying and rotting in a in a ditch somewhere so um yeah I totally agree that you have to you have to be honest you have to sort of own up to you know your own um your own decisions and so you know we own up to it you know we say okay we're going to eat animals but you know we we make sure that those animals were treated well and and that they had a good life and that they weren't um you know stuffed in a pen somewhere I mean I think that's important I think that we can do that I think that we we can vote with our pocketbook and some people don't have the luxury um you know to be able to you know do that and try to you know go to regenerative farms and and buy locally and things like that but people that do you know I think that it is important to try to try to um you know get you make sure that the animals were treated well and and just just like that you know people that are eating a plant-based diet you need to accept the fact that you know your quinoa and lettuce and all these sorts of things you know come at the cost of a lot of animals a lot of birds birds being poisoned one quadrillion insects being eradicated in America every year um and that's the entire basis of the food chain for a lot of animals and birds and lizards and all these sorts of things now there's going to be billions of animals that can't exist because they aren't able to eat all these bugs because they've just been wiped out because of the pesticides and all the poisons that get into the rivers poison all the fish get into the groundwater start poisoning humans you know all these sorts of things I mean there are KnockOn consequences you know just because you wanted to do the nice thing and it felt like the right thing doesn't mean it was the right thing and and if you you have to look at the downstream consequences of your decisions and if they aren't good and if they aren't in keeping with your original principle which was you know not to hurt things and to do as as little damage and harm as possible well then you need to abandon that you need to go somewhere else you know I mean I'm I think that those vegan principles would actually require vegans to actually start eating large animals that are treated well because it's the causes the least harm and the least impact on the animal kingdom as well as the environment yeah I totally agree but uh weans just have this you know two three defense with them and eventually they they the logic and reasoning just goes for a TOs and there's always that emotional appeal appeal to Authority and you know all of that and they would come and write the same things that I think they've been writing since day one and all of that has been busted but you know vegans are vegans but that's a good thing I mean I people should really go through you know all of these uh diets and you know like I had been a vegetarian though I was eating eggs and dairy but veganism is is a farfetched you know it's the other extreme of not eating anything so when I can see that change you know I'm the biggest proponent I think for the last three years of the Caro died it's good in a way you know they experience that and every vegan that I've come across has talked about how especially in aut and everybody tried the vegan root first and then they got AG aggravated their condition got lots of flareups and you know it worsened actually and then they came to me so in in a way you know I'm happy that they've seen both spectrums uh when they had an autoimmune condition they tried to go vegan they had some uh some results they saw some results but eventually it all came back it flared up and some people they had no results at all so it's very easy to you know then show them or talk about them the the results that you know the outcomes that we can achieve on a car so I'm happy you know people are also coming through that route you know because you're experiencing that side of the Spectrum as well you know like me yeah yeah so um era thank you so much that's been it's been absolutely pleasure talking to you it's so great to see you again I I really appreciate you coming on and I'm glad we're able to do this um where can people find you online and see more of your stuff okay I um I'm based in India as I said and I'm in practicing in Mumbai but you can find me online on Twitter I am theah at the a t h e i a s h a y and um the handle low cab healer I'm also an Instagram with the same name and you can either you want to get in touch with me you can drop me a DM or something so that's pretty much it perfect perfect so I'll uh I'll put those links in the description and people can find you down there and uh and please do go and follow IA and see more of her work thank you so much it's been an absolute pleasure thank you Dr chy it's been uh as much a bigger pleasure to be on your podcast and one of the heroes that I ad M and truly do and it was it was a great fun talking to you at the metabolic Health conference and I'm sure you know we would one of these days would invite you for a d Life podcast we've already had Dr kenberry Sean Baker Dr Gary F long long time back I think in 201617 oh wow so yeah yeah D life has had a series of podcast beginning 2014 and you know onwards and everyone Dr anwin Dr Gary F Emy burer all of these people have been on the D Life podcast long back so I you're the only one remaining I think so I will send you an invite for that and be very happy you could come you know to our yeah absolutely anytime it would be a pleasure great thank you Dr thank you no problem thank you and thank you everyone for watching and please do hit like And subscribe if you haven't already leave a comment to let us know what you think and please do go find uh Eva and follow her work as well thank you everyone we'll see you next time hey guys thank you very much for taking the time out to listen to what I had to say if you like it then please like And subscribe to my YouTube channel and podcast and if you're on YouTube then please hit that little bell and subscribe and that'll let you know anytime I have a new video out which should be every week if not more and if you could share this with your friends that would help me get the word out and let me know that you like what I'm doing thanks again guys