Curing IBD and Maximizing Athletic performance | The Meat Mafia

welcome to the plant free MD podcast with Dr Anthony Chaffey where we discuss diet and nutrition and how this affects health and chronic disease and show you how you can use this to optimize your health and happiness both mentally and physically [Music] hey guys just want to take a second to thank our sponsor at carnivore bar I don't promote many products because honestly all you need to be healthy is to just eat meat for those times that you're out hiking road tripping or stuck at work and you want nutritious snack that is just meat fat and salt if you want it the carnival bar is a great option so I like this product not because it's just pure meat but also because I want the carnivore Market to thrive as well and the more we support meat only products the more meat only products that will be available in the mainstream so if this sounds like something you'd like to get behind check it out using my discount code Anthony to get 10 off which also applies to subscriptions giving you 25 off total all right thanks guys uh hello everyone as Dr Anthony chafee and I'm here with a a very special group set of guests Brent Harry from the meat and Mafia podcast uh guys how are you doing thanks for coming on good man thanks for having us we're excited to be here yeah well it's great to have you I got it was a pleasure to come on your podcast I love talking to you guys so I'm glad that you guys were able to come back on and and uh hang out on mine for a while yeah it was good to get into the weeds and talk uh talk a little bit about me with you that was uh that was a good combo so hopefully uh running it back here will be great cool um well for for those who haven't haven't come across you guys can you just uh you know tell us a bit about yourself and what you're doing and give a bit of background yeah and Harry correct me where uh if there's anything that'll leave out but yeah so we uh we both separately run the meat Mafia account um so we both have our own Twitter accounts we kind of have this like pseudo Anonymous Italian that we've been playing off of each other but you know really this whole interest in nutrition is like an extension of our friendship so we both played collegiate baseball together um we went to Babson College which is a small D3 School business school up in Boston Massachusetts and we both kind of had our own separate nutritional Journeys when we graduated um going into my senior year I got diagnosed with ulcerative colitis when I was 21 years old um I was working an internship in New York City I was living at home with my parents in New Jersey and started developing this blood in my stool when I would go to the bathroom and uh you know like a lot of people that get UC I just didn't really say anything I was a little bit embarrassed about it and just young and dumb and by the end of that summer over the course of three months I was going to the bathroom 20 20 to 30 times a day so ended up in the hospital got a colonoscopy got diagnosed with colitis and with that diagnosis I was told that I was going to be on the biologic Remicade for the rest of my life and then also lialda and then I was on a dosage of Prednisone for some time so you know at that point I really wasn't thinking about diet and lifestyle at all I was just thinking that I was going to be dependent on this medication and you know I really fell into that category of Being Fit but unhealthy so like I was playing college baseball I was in good shape aesthetically good muscle tone but just really was not taking care of myself I was drinking too much I wasn't sleeping enough I was eating a lot of fried processed food I was chronically stressed out putting way too much pressure on myself with baseball um so like looking back now it makes perfect sense it's like why I contracted something like that um and I would say everything changed for me in 2019 when I came across Dr Baker on Joe Rogan's podcast for the first time and he was talking about you know all these patients that had these incurable autoimmune conditions that were curing it by tree eating an animal-based carnivore diet um and then the other interesting thing Dr Chavis I started seeing all these people on Reddit that were talking about curing their Crohn's colitis IBS through a carnivore diet so you know from my perspective if there was anything that I could do to get off of this medication that was costing me fifty thousand dollars in infusion every eight weeks like I was willing to try it at that point so like you think about the cost for me with the medical system and I think there's over like a million people with crohn's colitis IBS Nationwide so you can do the math on how much that adds up but you know I'm not kidding I remember very vividly within the first seven days of doing this diet I had gone down immediately to like one to two bowel movements a day that's all it took was about a week so for me that was really like the first indication of wow like controlling my dietary inputs and my lifestyle has a massive of implications on my GI Health my quality of life my skin got healthier my lifts in the gym went away or went way up my anxiety went away you know mental mood went great and then since then I've just kind of refined it and refined it over time and then you know when you have ulcerative colitis you're supposed to get a colonoscopy every two years just to make sure you know you don't have colon cancer and you're not you don't have an inflammation or any flare-ups and so in 2021 all my inflammation went away all my micro inflammation went away and I've been off Remicade for over a year and feel fantastic so um you know I think a lot of our goal with what we're doing at the meat Mafia is to try and talk to what's kind of gone wrong with our food system and how we can control our dietary inputs to make us healthy over healthier overall as a society and Harrison I know you've had your your own incredible story with your health but it's really like a convergence of both of our health Journeys that have led us to this point where right now nice yeah we I I think like the backbone of us both being competitive athletes too um you know after graduating college we were both looking for those Outlets to put that competitive nature and energy into and so both of us were kind of drawn to this endurance Sport Arena and we started doing these like Iron Mans at different distances marathons at different distances um and ultimately like reconnected through that uh we kind of uh I went and worked a corporate jobs same with Brett and um we we kind of fell out of touch but a few years into after graduation we saw that each other were running these events and we started doing these races together and ultimately we ended up running uh long story short short running the Waco Iron Man together this past fall and last October and we were living together for like a month leading up to it training eating together I still remember there's this our first grocery store run was like hilarious because we we got to the checkout line and both of us were eating carnivore and or like carnivore or like as animal based as possible and um the the ladies like are you guys throwing a party this weekend and it was just me and Brett like eating for a week uh just ridiculous uh grocery bill but um that was kind of like the the groundwork for us being like hey we've both kind of had our own Journeys I I went from being kind of unhealthy corporate guy to figuring figuring out how to get control of my health through a keto diet and then that sort of kept evolving into a more uh strict version of the animal-based diet and carnivore diet so um you know we both had that journey together and then that event itself kind of brought us working together into fruition which was has just been really fun I mean we figured out things that we're passionate about through writing about the food system and just all the areas that you know a lot of the information that's out there just leads people down the road in the wrong direction and something that we're just passionate about is uh kind of rewriting that and letting people know that you know they can experiment with food themselves and figure out what works best for them but ultimately like real foods kind of tell the best story and uh you know we're excited to keep moving that ball forward nice and so how did you get to to carnivore yourself yeah so I um I experienced experimented with a paleo diet in college I was playing baseball and got really stripped with a paleo diet and felt the best I ever had I had always been big in the gym but had never really dialed in the diet I you know struggled with um some like cystic acne but in high school and looked looked great but like my face was telling a completely different story and ultimately got on some medication to fix that and basically glossed over the entire problem of my diet was not right and so getting to college I was looking to improve my performance and so I focused more on my diet still had the great training and saw great results and then once I graduated and started working in the corporate world it was like in the gym but not as intense and not as competitive and sort of lost that lost my fastball so to speak and um you know once I had gone down that path I was you know hit the breaking point like all right I need to regain my purpose here with my fitness goals and started that keto diet and so that was kind of a light bulb for me because it took about you know two weeks of just like strict eating and my keto diet was basically I mean it was as clean I was just eating animal based and felt amazing weight dropped off like crazy I mean I can pack on weight pretty easily but I dropped like 20 pounds in two weeks and 15 20 pounds in two weeks and the rest was history I was just continuing to look for that little Edge and see what else I could tweak yeah and then um and then what what um what convinced you to go like like straight up carnivore was a similar sort of thing that come across like Dr Baker and um and how long how long have you you've been doing it I know Brett you said you have you been full carnivore since 2019 Brett I haven't been I've been on and off but it's kind of like it's like my return to base so like I do throw in brutes and raw dairy and we were talking about that a little bit what we met in Austin but I honestly feel the best on your approach which is that here the closer I can get to red meat and salt that's when I feel the best yeah yeah and uh yeah so how long have you been been doing it yeah so I I started at the beginning of covid with the whole keto journey in 2020 so um same thing with Brett I've been using it more as a lever to like get back to Baseline but honestly the stricter I go usually the better I feel so it's like I kind of try to keep my bandwidth in terms of what I include in that diet as little you know as narrow as possible um my grocery store runs are usually pretty boring in terms of what I pick up so that's um it consists of eggs and ground beef mostly so I don't know it sounds exciting to me like yeah I get it I get thrilled every time I go to the meat section at Costco and I just like stack this big ass you know uh you know um card full of meat like I mean I I just keep looking like this is awesome and stacked my fridge I'm like that that has never looked boring to me like I still show people I'll show patience and things like that like the the picture on Instagram of my my refrigerator just staff stuff with meat you know and they're just talking about it's like really just me I'm like I'm I'm going to show you something like look at this and they're like oh my God look at this you know and uh no I always get really excited on that yeah so you're you're speaking my language there okay I just ordered my first uh I just ordered my first quarter cow so I'm in an apartment so I I have some space limitations but I've always been big on the idea of just having having those bulk orders like I love just having meat on hand you know you never know when that moment of inspiration or like when you just want to throw down a steak so just getting like a big bulk order so I've got that chest freezer coming in my order coming mid-september so I'm pumped yeah nice yeah you never know when the zombies are coming too so you want to have like a stock freezer the vegan zombies yeah the one thing I will say Harry has more butter in his fridge than anyone you'll ever meet I think you carry you must put five pounds of butter in that in that fridge I just always pick it up when I go and I just don't use it fast enough I guess yeah but yeah I've got a lot of butter in my fridge I'll send a picture yeah I'm ready to go like if if we run out of food I'll at least have butter so yeah yeah I mean I've got a few pounds of butter like a couple I don't have five pounds of butter though like if you don't have that but like um yeah and even then like yeah I'll just I'll get like um like kilo or two of butter like at a time and just like just have it there stocked just so I don't have to don't have to like mess around because like you know the the meat here in Australia is so lean you know they've really um bread out the cows yeah they they've bred them to be more lean you know because I mean makes sense you know they they you know if you accept the premise that fat is bad for you well then you should eliminate fat you know just like I accept the premise that plants are bad for you so I eliminate plants you know and so I I understand the motivation it's the same motivation as I have um and um but Australia's really taking that uh to Heart the whole fat cholesterol are bad for you and so it's just that like the market is is driven by that and so I was talking to a meat distributor and and I was like trying I was talking about fat content they're like oh well you know Steer me towards sort of lean things I was like like your fattiest thing like you have anything that hasn't been like trimmed to distraction and they're like you know it's so refreshing to hear that like most people are just the opposite and they get really pissed off that these things have fat and one lady I swear to God bought a rib eye loin like the entire you know revived roast sort of thing and then like came back um like the next day or the day after with basically this bag of meat of of fat that they they trimmed off of the of the rib eye and just be like you owe me three kilos of meat this was had all this fat on I don't want this fat and it's like she she trimmed it off it's just like then don't buy the rib eye you idiot you know you know like what's wrong with you you chose that you know and then she came back and then she demanded that they give her you know three kilos or whatever you know equivalent weight of uh of of just meat you know I'm like oh they saw this fat or whatever it's just like why would you buy the fattiest cut of meat if you didn't want the fat you know and then complain about it so yeah so they um they really they really averse of that and so I was talking to a Rancher and they said that's like they've actually bred the cattle here they said he they've ruined the breed because they have very very low fat you know even even you know grain finishing them they have very low fat and so yeah yeah so it's um yeah it's it's crazy they did that but as a result these things are are much leaner than I than I prefer and so I like I'll melt butter into most of these I'll melt butter into the rib eyes here by and large and uh but now the rib eyes are literally double the price I'm like I'm not I'm not gonna contribute to that and so I just I mostly go for New York's now and those are definitely too lean and um because they trim so much here they they trim off just basically all the fat that's possible to trim off and I wish I could get these guys before they they ruined these steaks but yeah that's what I gotta do yeah you're known for the uh 50 50 ground beef aren't you yeah yeah yeah I'm wearing a story about that yeah I heard they call you Dr 5050 I don't know if that's true or not but yeah like um it's good though have you guys tried that no it sounds too yeah we got to go to a butcher and just have specially requested I think yeah yeah I think if you make like a big order you get like 10 pounds in a go they'll uh they'll make it for you because they'll do like a whole batch at around however much of that is and so if you're if you if you buy the whole batch they'll sort of make it for you however you want and uh or at least they did for me and it tastes so much better so much better and obviously you cook it too much you'll you'll render out all all of the fats so you want you want it sort of more medium rare to rare and just sort of seared on the outside um but uh no it tastes great and yeah the the the the ground beef here is in intensely lean and um you know I'm like like 95 lean in some of these things 95 93 90. and then like the really fatty stuff because I think that you know the low grade low grade meaning that it has more fat in it it's like 85 and I was just like I don't think I've ever seen 85 in in America like that's like you know like 80 it was you know well maybe 85 but like around 80 is usually pretty lean and then like you know 73 I think is pretty normal in America and uh but yeah super super lean yeah it's interesting to like just think about the majority of society just their aversion to saturated fat like I so definitely recall being in New York in 2019 I think I was like 24 years old and I just started to go carnivore and so as part of that I was cooking all my meals and I was making very basic dishes like I took a rib eye I chop it up I'd bring it into the office or I'd make a pound of ground beef and I was in tech so you know there are a lot of these Engineers that are like you know they're plant-based they're drinking Soylent they're drinking Mountain Dew Pizza they're like 30 40 pounds overweight and they're looking at me being like dude you're literally gonna die of a heart attack like I'm the best I've ever felt I'm doing Iron Man's but you're you're telling me that I'm gonna kill myself of a heart attack like it's just so crazy how we just these things that we accept with our diet and you see it Harry sees it it's insane yeah that that's a good point you know someone's like saying they're just eating like objective crap and they're just like oh my God you're really gonna die there you know it's like sipping on a soda or something like that you know like I mean that that's serious cognitive dissonance there yeah yeah totally yeah well you probably you probably saw it in the airport when you're going to Texas it's like if you look at an airport there's no food to be found it's just all processed out of a package that's made in a lab yeah yeah absolutely and um yeah nothing nothing's actual food anymore you know and I think that's that's why you know when people would go vegan or go carnivore or go anything anything Whole Food you're going to you're going to see an improvement which is where there's some some confounding sort of um you know information going on because people do improve on specific Whole Food vegan diets obviously you know Oreo cookies and heroin are both vegan you know and like so that's not necessarily gonna going to get you where you want to go but you know if you if you if you have a more rational approach and try to get and try to do like a whole food um you know trying to get the right proteins and and enough fats and things like that then yeah you're certainly going to improve then on these things because yeah it's just it's just chemical slop there's um I forget that who who said it originally but you know someone says it's just like you know human beings are the only animals that are in are intelligent enough to create their own food and the only ones dumb enough to eat it yeah yeah I love that quote Yeah it's getting it's getting scarier too with just I mean if you're not paying attention like there's obviously more and more of these products getting put on the market that have serious marketing dollars behind them and the marketing plays for all these big uh big food products have like the same Playbook and it's usually somewhere along the lines of having a celebrity endorsed product and have them just push the narrative and get it out there to as many people as possible and a lot of it targets young kids like if you look at Food commercials from the 90s there's an amazing one that I like to reference it's amazing in the worst possible way it's like a Pepsi commercial with Rihanna walking into a grocery store and there's a kid sitting outside the store listening to a Rihanna song and he sees Rihanna like walk up her hair is blowing back and he's like falling in love with her listening to her music and she's drinking a Pepsi and it's like clearly targeting kids and it's you know that's probably like one of the worst things you can put in your body has just straight sugar so just the nefarious I mean you know they're trying to sell product at the end of the day and it's like the fact that they're targeting kids is uh seriously indicative of where we are at in terms of health as a country um no yeah well I agree and you and you always do they always do Target kids because you know you indoctrinate kids and then they they're lifelong drug deal you know users you know what I mean like something that's why you you go to schools and you try to addict these kids early and then they you know and you and you caught them for the rest of their life you know while they're still vulnerable uh to to those that persuasion as well um you know it's funny you mentioned that I remember like sort of a commercial that was uh I think you know much more persuasive just because of the honesty of it um was a Sprite commercial like in in the 90s and it was like Grant Hill and it was like Grant Hill like walking by you know I was playing basketball whatever and he's like you know drinking a pet you know a Sprite as he whops off and this kid just looks at that and he's like crayon he'll drink Sprite Grant he'll drink Sprite Grant Hill drinks Sprite and he's like yeah obviously he's like drinking this this Sprite the kid does and he's like going and he like you know takes basketball he's jumping up and he's like slow motion like looking like he's got a dunk and his like narrator goes if you want to go to the NBA and like he goes up and like Stuffs the basketball like on the rim like Falls backwards like ah he's like practice you know but if you want to quench your thirst drink a Sprite and I loved it because it was just like it was it was you know it just cut through the like oh my God Rihanna drinks Coke like I have to drink Coke now I'm gonna be right yeah if I drink Coke you know and uh you know so it was uh it was it was it was refreshing in that sense it was just like hey this is this is just a drink you know it's just like if you if you're thirsty and you want something that tastes good you buy this like if you want to actually do something with your life and then go do it yeah yeah yeah it's always interesting too to like explore some of the history of how these products came to be in existence like that's a lot of what we've done in the meat Mafia is like our primary platform is Twitter right now and really how we grew is we started writing these informational threads on just the history of food and how we got to this point and one of the threads that we wrote that did really well was just on the origin story of Lunchables and a lot of people don't realize this but Lunchables is owned by Oscar Meyer and in the 80s they realized that like the deli meat bologna the sales were doing terrible so they were like they got a marketing team together it's like just emergency brainstorm waste of how they could increase bologna sales so they started coming up with this combination of like Lunchables like a convenience sandwich type snack and they were going to Market it towards moms and what they realized is that in their product testing kids were having so much fun playing and putting together the sandwiches and the combinations they were like oh maybe we should Market this towards kids instead and then a couple iterations later they start throwing the sugar in there the pre-suns and now it's like parents are literally sending their kids to school with this garbage you know we have ADD we have all these other issues with participation and distractions and it's like it's all it all stems back from a company that was trying to just sell baloney because their deli meat sales were down yeah and that's and that's a good point too you know we have we have all these new add and all these sorts of things you know um and we you know we just didn't really see this before and and you know people are well it's probably there we just you know it was a misdiagnosed I was like hey that's an assumption and B that's an assumption that doesn't actually you know you know fit The observed facts you know because we didn't have all these kids just running around not doing homework you know kids went there and they learned and they you know they did Reading Writing and arithmetic you know I I looked at my my uncle's second grade Latin textbook I'm going to say that again my uncle's second grade Latin workbook okay they were teaching Latin to second graders second year Latin by the way in second grade okay and I looked at almost like what the hell is this and I was like oh yeah that was that was your uncle petos that was his Latin workbook I'm like you guys are teaching Latin I think no one was taught Latin when I was going through school you know but that is what you were taught you were taught you know the classics you had a classical education and that meant what it sounds like you know from Classical Greece you know you learned you know uh you you studied and read you know the the Greek uh tragedies and and plays and uh and and learned you know what they have been teaching people for 3000 years you know or three thousand years ago and uh and and and and and it made a difference you're learning Latin you're learning Greek you're you're you're you're learning the basis and fundamentals of language and arithmetic you know for for a second grader to be able to sit down and pay attention to like a lecture on Latin you know like you got to be pretty switched on and this is this is just part of the normal curriculum and now we're just going we're doing as much as we can to infantilize people and to to do even less and less for them and it's like oh we have these these all these issues now we have to change how we're teaching people you know we've been teaching people in this classical method for for literally thousands of years why is it why is it that this does just doesn't work anymore as it's just never worked ever and so just no one has ever received a proper education and now we're just we're finally figuring it out probably not you know we have we have thousands of years of of trial and error on seeing what works and what doesn't and now all of a sudden you know it's not working as well so obviously there's something else going on there you know and I don't think that we've just always had you know roaring 80d issues and and just never diagnosed it and and you know as a you know something I I've said before like you know we have this you have a problem you have a pill sort of mentality now and um it's just like oh we have ADD here's this you know here's uh this sort of amphetamine that will help you with that um you know add isn't isn't uh caused by a lack of amphetamines that have just been invented you know in the last sort of decade you know that's it's not it's not it's not an amphetamine deficiency you know it's not like you know like like scurvy you know where it's like you have a deficiency in something your body's not working properly you know so it's um it's it's just a bit bizarre to me that people think that these things just been around forever and that the only thing we've been missing is just this pharmaceutical that just showed up last week well clearly we've we've we're doing something else and we're screwing with Our Brands and screaming with the brains of our children and and I think that that uh you know is a is a very plausible explanation for that this induction of a really shitty food into into kids lives Yeah Yeah a hundred percent I I feel like you were speaking to it a little bit earlier but it's like this dilution of Standards is totally reflected in the food system but in so many other areas of our society there's a really cool video of this California high school that's going through like a physical fitness uh examination and they all look like Marines like they all look incredibly fit and it's from like the 50s or 60s and it's like it's a little propagandy in terms of like Pro like you know sign up for the military type of thing but it was it was really impressive like if I had seen it like today I would be completely shocked um but yes I mean it feels like a reduction in the standards of like what we are promoting from a health standpoint like why don't we want our kids to all be incredibly athletic moving their bodies well at a young age like at age 18 that should be kind of like the The Benchmark right and now we just don't really think of it that way we've we've kind of let things slip so yeah it's it's it's kind of it's tough to to watch and participate in so yeah well no yeah and that and that's the thing too is that um you know we're we're also sort of trying to change our societal norms and what we appreciate and and don't appreciate and trying to say you know I'm not I'm not you know saying that we should go and and you know be mean to people and ridicule them for not being in shape or not looking a certain way obviously but you know but then but now we're going to the other other side of things and we're we're we're sort of glorifying that and saying it's actually really good you know there's like um I think uh you know Sean Baker posted like a picture like an Abercrombie uh picture of this this woman who was sort of in quite tight clothing but she was quite overweight and then versus like you know an early Abercrombie picture these people are you know you know Calvin Klein models and obviously they're models but like you know but that idea of what you know what what a the physical form uh should you know it would ideally look like that that concept was very different and you know and and I guess you sort of go back and look at this you know in the the classical statuary and things like that as well of of of you know the physical ideal it was a you know aesthetically you know lean strong body you know and um and of course are examples of some things so it had like you know larger sort of women that was that was the the symbol of um you know fertility and and uh and motherhood and things like that so there are there are sort of little little differences there but um by and large you know people you know looked at the physical form in a very different way and now we're sort of being told to actually no no no this is this is you know big is beautiful all that sort of stuff and um and and that's fine but you know it's it can at the same time you know uh make people not realize just just how actually important this this this stuff is to your health you know and it's one thing to look a certain way um I don't I don't work out and eat what I do to look a certain way I don't I just don't really care um I I do because I feel good and I and it makes me feel healthy and when I'm you know working out and playing rugby I work out so that I can play rugby and I and I end up looking in shape as a result of that you know but that's not why I'm doing it you know yeah we have a buddy that we met up with in Colorado that said that as a society us stopping to judge books by their cover is like one of the worst things that we've ever done it's kind of an interesting point and it's like it's polarizing to say it especially today in traditional Society but it's like you look at that that model or the mannequins or whatever and it's like take the morality out of it the Judgment it's like you're metabolically unhealthy like by you being peace so it's like we want you to be held healthy so it's like that's not it's not a it's not an objectively beautiful thing for you to be metabolically unhealthy and if you lose weight and go to the gym and play around with your dietary inputs it's like that's one of the most amazing things about Fitness in general is like besides you having like an underlying chronic disease it's one of the fairest Pursuits ever where if you eat healthy and you change your lifestyle it's like anyone is capable of losing weight and getting towards that body or that lifestyle that they want so that's what motivates us is to just try and spread that message yeah but then to piggyback on that it's like the messaging is almost to make Health subjective when it's it's really not like if you're in the hospital you're not healthy uh yeah and like you know there's some objective realities to being a healthy individual and like we can all agree that some of them are visible so I think just by promoting those uh those ideas in messaging it it's not good long term I mean maybe it makes people feel better but there's a collective issue there that is probably in need of being addressed yeah well I definitely agree and you know I don't know if it's if it's because they're trying to you know not make people feel bad which is which is you know admirable or it's because they're trying to you know uh promote you know ill health and and sedentary lifestyle because that you know just makes people a bit more compliant you know um I have my own sort of views on that just because I just have I just have a more cynical take on things and I just I've just I've just seen you know shitty people do shitty things throughout history and we get we get very you know complacent living in you know a place like America or Australia or the UK or you know most of Europe really um Western Europe in particular where we have had it good for a very long time and uh and we have had a sort of an independent you know uh you know uh liberal uh system of governance you know in classical uh liberal sense of freedom and then Liberty and and people being able to direct the the course of their own lives um and and so because we've been able to do that for so long that generation after generation after generation you know we've gotten a bit soft and we we've stopped you know we we forgot exactly how hard it was to get there and exactly what we had to do and that and and we don't teach history anymore we certainly don't teach Latin and so people don't remember and realize that the vast majority of civilizations and the vast majority of people who have ever lived have done have been have done so under tyrannical Rule and um and that is the norm you know is that people are going to try to concentrate power and they're going to try to take over and they're going to try to control you for their own benefit and um and if you don't push against that and fight against that you will end up you know becoming you know serfs and slaves I wish I think we honestly already are you know I mean we we you pay like in Australia like tax tax rates like 47 percent you know you know and like and like you know capital gains is like it's just taxed as income you know so it's just like you're you're your return on investment is just yeah it's just income you know and um and then there's high taxes on property taxes and sales taxes value-added taxes and all these sorts of things and so you know if you look at that you know as a as a percentage of of your year that you work and all and that goes to the government that you're working for the government that all your money goes to the government that you're a slave to the government you know you're looking at you know a minimum of six months of your life you're working as a slave for someone else well what was serfdom serfdom was you you lived on the land and obviously you you weren't really allowed to move freely you were you were tied to the land and so if someone if the Lord like sold the land like the Surfs came with it but you would even even like free citizens who had land that land would be on the Lord's land and so you had to pay your dues that's what I buy a land I buy a house here I still have to pay property taxes but I own it no I'm just leasing that Land from the government apparently and uh and you don't own a damn thing and so they would have to they would have their crops and their fields and they would um and you basically sometimes you'd have a few days to bring in a crop before it would spoil or a storm would come in and you'd ruin the crop it was a very temperamental thing and but you you were required to bring in the Lord's crop first and so you know you and you had worked on dawn to dusk you know doing that and you have to you know pulling this thing pulling this thing and to the point that if it didn't go quick enough or like a storm came in or something like that you could lose your entire crop because um because you weren't you weren't there it's just you know sitting and rotting in the field and um and then but you were still you still had to pay the taxes so you know you had you know an acre of of wheat or whatever you had to pay you know a certain percentage of that whether or not you brought it in and so if if your field went you know spoiled because you were you know forced to work in in you know the the Lord's feel you know you you were still you know responsible for 20 of that crop and now you had to just figure out and buy it or whatever they chucked you out and throw you in debtor's prison and things like that and um what are we at now you know like we're working for the Lord we pay tax we don't own we don't own land you know our time is not our own you know we the product of our labor is not ours it belongs to the government for six months out of the year we have to work for them and um you know so I think that we're already back there I think like for 150 years in America before you know income tax that does I mean that whatever whatever we do I think the the next thing that needs to happen is is repealing the the 16th Amendment with the the federal income tax like that's just got to go and be oh well we have to pay for no you damn well don't you know eighty percent of the federal government is spending money on things that they are not constitutionally allowed to spend money for that's another topic for another day but like or maybe not maybe just just get pissed off about that too but like you know you don't like you don't need to pay for these things because they're not supposed to exist in the first place and and we had 150 years we didn't have that crap and all the taxes all yours your your state local Federal everything all your duties all the taxes that you paid all the money that went to the government on average accounted for six days work right so you worked for six days for the government the rest of the time was your own now it's like minimum six months right because even even in America has a lower tax rate you're still paying sales tax you're paying property tax you're paying all these other taxes and it's estimated you're around fifty percent fifty percent of your of your time goes to the government and so that's six months of your damn life and so in Australia it's more in other parts of Europe it's more and so you know you're like nine months out of the year you're a slave you know and um it's it's absolutely miserable I don't know what your thoughts your guys thoughts on that are well and then and then you hear things like Elizabeth Warren proposing a tax on unrealized gains which is right which is like just another step in in the crazier direction of just the messaging behind that to me is like we don't care we don't care about you at all we don't want you to have any sort of feeling of Freedom uh you're just gonna work for the government in the office ways we'll take care of you but you'll never have any sense of like personal sovereignty which to me it's like it's just full capture at that point but I think there are I mean it's concerning because I think it's like made its way into the food system uh in a lot of ways and I think even outside of that just these these ideas of like control and centralization we actually started writing online with a guy who's who went on a harvest and kind of went into the big four Packers of the meat industry in the U.S and did some like behind the scenes research and like uncovered the Truths Behind like what's happening in these big four Packers and how they control basically all the supply of meat that's happening that's getting distributed uh in the U.S and in basically the developed world and it's uh it's just a it's crazy to think how much power just rides uh you know is driven through um these really big large uh multinational companies and and governments I think they're one of the same basically we were talking with a buddy about uh or earlier today about the tech companies in the U.S they're just an extension of the government's ability to to control us their data and Telecommunications in other ways I mean it sounds crazy to say but I mean they are they they you don't own your data they're at like in order to log into all these websites and and get access to anything you have to give every piece of information that you ever had I remember when the internet was early on and that was a weird thing to do to have to put any sort of information into online now it's just normal so for me I think there's a lot of different things happening and they're all centered around this idea of control and centralization yeah and that why and I I would think you're you're dead on as well and you know and um you know it goes back to just that's that's just been the history of humanity you know people try to to consolidate power around themselves and you know when you when you centralize government what does that do that that takes all the ownership and all the power and everything it puts it into the government it's like oh we can help you now it's like a government that's powerful enough to to bring about a Utopia is also powerful enough to bring about about uh totalitarianism and slavery and and you know murders I mean this is this is what happened with all the you know the the totalitarian um centralized governments um you know like the USSR China I mean China today is still they still have gulags they still have mass executions and murders you know like it's it's an Open Secret that they're you know that there's a you know a genocide going on with the uyghur Muslims in there you know imprisoning these people and murdering them and and uh and subjugating them and slaving them why why are we putting up with this crap you know like I really don't I really don't get that oh no we have to they're just so big we just have to we can't possibly compete without you know that's what they said about the USSR I thought it was just too big it's too powerful better read than dead I was like well hey no it's not and B you know um that that actually isn't a foregone conclusion that they were I mean it wasn't you know that you know that's why there's a place called America and there is not a place called the USSR anymore you know the Assumption was that they were too powerful it was too big it was too this it was too that we couldn't we couldn't just be like yeah no F all um now they're saying that with China why you know it's it's the exact same argument is exactly the same flawed argument um their economy is uh one quarter of America's economy and America's economy is not what it should be you know like when when we pull off the restrictions we pull off the regulations you know and allow people just live their life they are wildly more productive and this this is just is a rule you know and so you know the more centralized a more controlled um you know because you centralize something it goes in the government other people in charge of the government right and there are people that aren't in the government so now these people are in charge of these people these are the slave masters and then and then you have somebody at the top somebody is going to be in charge of the government that person is an automatic totalitarian dictator with with the in control of a slave state automatically that is that is the nature of that program and so when you do that people become less productive and the reason that China has become more productive in recent years is because they've sort of let off some of these regulations sort of let people just get on with things even even still with opening things up and having Hong Kong as part of them because that obviously that is um that that plays into the equation too even though they just just completely stuffed that now um their economy is one quarter that of our beleaguered economy if compared to what it could be and should be um and they have four times the population we do right so per capita they are 1 16 as productive as America as America is okay how how are we not possibly able to compete with these people exactly you know and how is it just not oh couldn't possibly like all we do to to stop these things is just be like right we're just not going to trade with you see it you know and just putting like serious restrictions they're done you know tomorrow they I mean they require you know the the you know other other people hiring them to do things make things cheaply there and also they steal like one to two trillion dollars worth of intellectual property every year they have no regard for international patent laws you know a new new version of Windows comes out everyone in China has it like that day you know did they just take it and bootleg it you know and um and and that's it and so you know they do this with all sorts of things there's all sorts of you know that come there's a Confucius institution um the Confucius Institute something like that they they it's supposed to be about you know knowledge and learning things like that it's just it's just a spy operation that they use to like and infiltrate into um American universities This Is Well published and documented this is well known and yet we allow them to get away with this you know it it absolutely blows my mind yeah and I mean you're asking necessary questions too and I think what's sad particularly in Western Society is people are so afraid now of having a dissenting opinion or making any of this information public or asking these questions publicly um when you know people are thinking it so I don't know if it's I don't know if it's cowardice I don't know if it's stupidity ignorance it's probably like a combination of all three um but if you if I was to go back to the point that you made on personal sovereignty I think in a lot of ways Harrison and I and I'm sure yourself too I could view this carnivore diet kind of as like the ultimate Fu to Surf them and that was kind of like my initial way to break out of the Matrix and I I just hope that if there's anyone that's listening to this that people realize just how big of an impact your diet can actually have because I feel like once I started taking conscious control of the food I was putting into my body and like consciously seeking out Farmers to Source it from and cook all my own meals like everything changed like I physically changed I mentally changed you know you start to have the energy to stick up to some of the stuff and you have vitality where it's like a lot of men out there now it's like testosterone levels are the lowest they've ever been Everyone's Watching pornography it's like they're addicted to these cheap forms of dopamine and they're just going through life comfortably numb and compliant so yeah yeah the idea of taking back a little bit of control can just go such a long way like I think like sourcing your food with your with your farmer that's like it's really not anything that elaborate but it's just that little extra step where you actually build a relationship you're intentional about what you're buying you know the person who's growing the food it gives you a little bit more ownership and then you go back home and you cook them yourself you're doing everything but killing the animal and butchering at that point so you're getting a little bit closer to the food system I think it's like a really really important process for people to start re-engaging with um it's something that we harp about all the time and and uh it's like core to how both of us got healthy again and like how we've helped other people realize that there are ways to get healthy again yeah well and and on that note too you know you guys obviously you know with with the meat Mafia podcast um obviously you're you're being able to disseminate you know your ideas and get other people's eye you know on there and talk to different people about that um how did the the you know the you said you started sort of on Twitter but what made you guys decide to like actually do a podcast and what was your what was your sort of goal with that where where did you want to take that and and sort of lead people down was it was it purely just a sort of Education educating people about like a carnivore diet or a diet in particular or is there is there more uh than that to it yeah I think we were originally kind of just off put by the idea that I was getting pressed on kids with the like meatless Mondays and vegan Fridays and um not to say that we were really pushing a carnivore diet but we're more so pushing a real foods diet and uh including in that not the elimination or or uh fighting back against the elimination of meat uh obviously were huge proponents of meat but the idea of eliminating that from your your child's diet is I'm stealing the words from uh the person who we originally started writing for online who's Texas slim but it's literally a genocide I mean you you are bankrupting a generation of kids from nutrients that are essential for their brain development there's insane pictures of B12 deficiencies brain scans of kids who try to vegan diet versus not having it and you can see that the insane difference that it has on a kid's brain Imaging and you know with all the different problems out there that are happening in the food system we think creating a simple message and creating a message that people can actually understand the whole concept of dieting in general I think is really confusing like as soon as keto came out the core of it is great but then like five years down the road you fast forward and now you have all these keto cookies and keto twinkies and it's like this isn't healthy this isn't healthy either so just making sure people realize like real foods are where it's at start there and there's ways to make it healthier but like we're so far off base that we just need to start with looking at real foods versus processed foods and go from there so that's kind of like where we come in and we started thinking about this Brad I don't know if you want to tell the story about how we got it got going on the podcast just because you you seem to remember that one better than I did I I feel like we just kind of started yeah why it was you it was your idea because we were growing our Twitter really fast and the thing is for us too it's like right we don't have an MD like you DR chafee or anything like that but we've been practitioners of this stuff for over 10 years like we're both we've put in the 10 000 hours we've experimented with all different types of diets and we have a passion for it and we were just motivated it's like we're 28 we're Millennials and you a lot of our friends are overweight they're obese they have chronic diseases and you see that Trend and it's sad so for us we were like okay the Twitter is doing well but how do we create another form of content where like if we're talking to our friends and family and a family member we can just send them a 45-minute clip of us speaking with you or a different type of doctor or a Rancher and maybe that'll just help them flip the switch and think about their food system a little bit differently and focus on Solutions as to what's going on so it really for us was just another way to connect with people that we've admired for the last years that have had a huge impact on the way we think about Nutri attrition and also create the type of content that we can send to our friends and family members to help them think about nutrition in a different way nice and how long how long has the have you been guys doing that now so we started the podcast in March and um we did a ton of episodes early on like we were recording like crazy um really just took the idea of like higher volume just like connect with as many people as possible um don't really worry about kind of all the like you know two podcasts a week type of thing like we just kind of cranked through it and it helped us we got better at podcasting we figured out some of the Kinks we obviously are still figuring out a lot of The Kinks most of it was virtual has been virtual but um you know we kind of just hit the ground running and tried to have as many cool conversations as possible and just get that out there and kind of build like a base and figure out how to do these types of things um and I think both of us have just taken a liking to it because we love talking to people about these topics that they're passionate about that were also equally as passionate about and it just it's always I don't think we've had a bad conversation yet and um it's like just bro it's brought about this like uh I think you know building an audience is fun um and just seeing like the number go up you're like okay people are like kind of paying attention now like for a while it was like two months in people who had been following us on Twitter us were like you guys saw a podcast and we had like 60 apps so it was uh it was fun just to kind of see things kind of develop and solidify nice yeah and and what uh what direction you want to you want to take it and you we were talking off camera that you guys are really really focusing on this as like full time uh which I think is great you know that you guys can do that because obviously you're going to get the most out of it you're going to get a much better quality uh you know uh you know performance and and product at the end of the day product being uh your podcast and so obviously that's if you're able to do that it's uh it's great that you can um what where do you want to take this in the future yeah I think there's a few different directions and Harrison jump in if I'm missing anything but I think Harrison made a good point about all these like keto products that exist that aren't actually real foods they're products like we met a ketocon Dr chafing it's like you're walking the aisles and you're like this stuff is legitimate garbage that's loaded with artificial sugar and Seed oils part of what we want to do is we want to create a line of real food products that don't currently exist in the market so we want to start with something simpler like cooking towel like beef Tallow and be able to do an educational campaign about how back in the day we used to cook with Tallow and lard and we're healthier than we'd ever been start with something like Tallow and then Branch out to different types of products like steak bars with organ Meats baked in but have it really taste like Gourmet and taste good but put this whole educational campaign to it so I think there's definitely the food angle that we're going towards now I think we also want to be practitioners like our dream is to be able to buy Farmland have cows have chickens put on these experiences for people and really have that full line of like vertical integration um but for us it's about like we genuinely think that you know collectively we can change the food system so like we want to create documentaries we want to like go all in on this thing and grow the podcast and just like start with our small sphere of influence and just try and grow the message as much as we can that's badass you know and uh so well I really hope that that um well I'm sure you guys will do it you know you guys are doing it so that's awesome man you know yeah I'm really excited for what the next next few years uh you know uh brings because I think things are starting to sort of you know eek into the into into more of a mainstream discussion um it's not quite there yet but it's uh but it's going there and you and you have like that that Harvard study you know um look looking at at least at least asking the question and you know it shows that there's interest and shows that there's okay that people are paying attention and and taking notice and I think that's really really good and so now the more of these things we get out there uh the better and and so we had the Harvest site that went well um and uh and other things have come up recently and you know now you're getting a little more documentaries you know the like the sort of uh you know food lies uh things gonna be coming out hopefully you know next year and uh and that should be great and then you have other things like you know Vinnie uh Twitter which is um you know fat a documentary and and Beyond impossible and things like that they start showing the sort of the corruption in the system and and um you know and and so that this has been we've been lied to and this is and uh and so it's starting to just get into more of the mainstream discussion at least and so I think that uh it's it's and it's obviously very important to get get products out there as well because that that's exactly what's what's competing out there and so you get a product out there that is meat-based that is healthy and people like it and they want it um because they understand that it's healthy it also tastes a lot better um yes these big corporations are going to have to start paying attention as well and if they want to uh you know start competing they don't want someone else to come up and start competing with them oh okay now we've got to make our own product and uh and then they're gonna have to switch gears and so I think that the more that we do this and the more things you know people like yourselves get out there and start you know making products you know the better better position we're going to be in uh in the long run so I think that probably within the next five years this is going to be an actual mainstream idea maybe within the next few years this would be a mainstream idea and we'll we'll have we'll have you know more open discussions and debates and things like that about a carnivore diet you know Sean Baker and asean Malhotra were just on I think there's like gbms like it was like Great Britain news or something like that and they were talking about the carnivore that like really like what is this you know and they sort of you know went into it a little bit that's that's very important you know to get on to get on those sorts of things so um yeah so I don't know what do you guys think about uh the sort of the the uh the future of of this where do you think it's going to be in five years what we're doing or just in general just in general just the whole whole climate of of uh you know food and and carnivore and all that sort of stuff yeah I I kind of I agree with you I think it's swinging back in the other direction right now I think if you look at what's happening with the fake meat uh products that are out there they're doing horribly and I think that there's a slow Awakening of people who are becoming more and more aware of the food system does that mean that everyone will wake up and figure out you know what what they need to be doing when it comes to engaging with their food probably not but I think a lot of people are so um yeah I I'm optimistic for the medium to long term the short term might be a little bumpy but yeah Brett anything no I think I think we're both optimists and I think a lot of it is about just putting out the right information and trusting that the truth is always going to Prevail so a lot of a lot of what I do is I have a personal Instagram account and for years I've just been posting like my carnivore recipes and drinking raw milk and all this stuff and people are all I never tell people how to eat I just show them what I'm doing and over time people will become curious because they see that I'm looking better and better and doing better so they'll start to ask me like more about what I'm doing or what's the carnivore diet about and that's when I can start to send them like different types of pockets of information and dispel all the that they've been hearing because on social media it's easy to share like some fraudulent statistic like oh the red meat industry emits more greenhouse gas than all of Transportation combined right the three of us know that that's blatantly false but people see that and view that as fact so I think as long as we can keep putting the right information out there and being like that proof of work that people can look up to dude people are going to start eating more animal products and realizing that they felt better than they ever have before so we're optimistic man yeah well awesome man um well I um I just just got through time and um I just want to say like are you guys is there anything else that you wanted to um you know maybe talk about or or Express or um uh anything in particular you wanted to to get out there and have people know about yeah I would just say so we're um we're heading to Georgia for a speaking engagement in September uh called the beef initiative and if people aren't um up to date on what that is it's basically a a platform for beef Distributors to participate in and distribute direct to Consumer beef um it's a great cause it's gonna be out at White Oak pastures if people are interested in joining I think it's gonna be a great event um we'll be there so just wanted to plug that and then also um we're working on that towel product we're really excited to get it going so next next few weeks here we're going to have that and uh yeah just keep an eye out for it awesome yeah and um so and and where where um can everyone uh you know find you obviously you have the podcast what are those sort of platforms uh can can people uh track you down on do you have a website things like that yeah so we have we're pseudo Anonymous on the internet even though people can find us if they want to so my we're the meme off yet so my Twitter handle is at Mr salazza which is an Ode To The Godfather one of the movies of all time and then Harry's account is at Carney clemenza and then on Instagram we just have one instagram account which is the meat Mafia podcast and then we also have a sub stack account where we try and publish a new article every single day just on different topics around nutrition and just updates of what's going on in the nutritional space so we're really trying to ramp that up a lot nice awesome we'll get we'll get uh all those links when you put those all in the description and uh yeah when you get the the you you you said you're close to bringing that Tallow product to Market yeah yeah we're a few weeks out from launching so we'll uh we'll have that ready to go soon which is really exciting we've been talking about it for a while and just excited about the idea of having a product out there that really just checks all the boxes for what we believe like you should be cooking all your all your meals you should be embracing saturated fats like that sort of the sort of ethos is core to how we operate so we're just excited that yeah that will be out in the consumer's hands soon yeah perfect fuel for you for your 30 sets of deadlifting Dr Chaffey yeah yeah one of the best stories that anyone's ever told on our podcast we get people that DM us about that all the time they love it yeah well too they get just it's just crazy how much different your body just works it just just works and like um you know and people just don't realize just how shitty they feel until they stop feeling shitty you know it's just like yeah when you have when all of a sudden you're like um I remember when I when I would get like an injury in rugby you know like I'd mess up my shoulder and like the doctor give me some Vicodin or something like that and all of a sudden it was just like all the other aches and pains and like my back and everything like that was just like be gone I'm like well I didn't even realize how shitty I was feeling until all of a sudden all this pain was going and realize how much pain I was in you know perpetually and then you know it wasn't until I just you know got rid of you know all these plants and crap like that that like all of a sudden my body started you know working well and I had I had I didn't have all these problems I didn't wasn't even aware that I had and I remember just just Dawning on me I was just like so I I've felt like crap my entire life you know I had no idea and then so when people say like well you know I would try it but like I actually feel good you know I don't I don't feel like there's a problem so I don't feel like there's anything in the face like I don't think you realize how bad you already feel you just don't realize how shitty you feel you know and uh and that's something that I think everyone should experience you know just try you know just try you know a couple weeks couple months you know a month or so and you see you just see you will see you know after two weeks the will be out of your body and you will you won't have necessarily your ideal body uh but you will you will feel so much better and and then you start eating as crap again you start feeling like crap and so I think that's uh it's just um you know for me I have just like a complete aversion to any of that stuff so but uh yeah well great well thank you very much guys I really appreciate you guys coming on taking the time and and I'm I'm you know sure that we'll be doing more of these again I hope that we do and uh you know good luck with everything and and um I don't know exactly when this will go out but possibly if your towel thing is is up and ready at that time we'll uh we'll put a link for that in there as well and uh okay awesome well thanks a lot guys really appreciate it thank you all right [Music]