Arnold Schwarzenegger's Secret Bodybuilding Diet

Welcome to the Plant-Free MD podcast with Dr. Anthony Chaffy, where we discuss diet and nutrition and how this affects health and chronic disease and show you how you can use this to optimize your health and happiness both mentally and physically. Hello everyone. Thank you for joining me for another episode of the PlanFree MD podcast. I'm your host Dr. Anthony Chaffy and today I have a very special return guest, Dr. Dr. Nash Yosich who is a professional bodybuilder and scholar and here to talk to us today about uh bodybuilding glycogen uh what you actually need as a high performance athlete and bodybuilder um from a nutrition standpoint. Dr. Yosich, thank you thank you so much for for coming on. It's great to see you again. >> Thank you. Thank you very much for having me back again. I hope that we are going to manage a great podcast and that our viewers are going to learn something new today. Absolutely. >> This is the main main reason we are here actually. >> Yeah, definitely. So, one of the things that that I wanted to talk about that we were talking about um previously was this idea about glycogen. So, I've I've made several posts about, you know, being athletic or doing a carnivore diet and how this helps people's health, but then we get a lot of athletes that say, "Well, but don't you need glycogen? you need carbohydrates to to fuel your athletic endeavors, to be an athlete, to be a bodybuilder. Um, and I've I've sort of responded in in certain ways, but it'd be great to hear your take as a professional bodybuilder and trainer. >> Yeah, this is this is a very common um issue. This is actually a stigma which is prevailing in in the fitness world in general, in bodybuilding world. Mhm. >> And uh this is the idea that if you don't eat carbohydrates, you will never have a full glycogen storage. So your performance will drop regardless of which sport you are in. But um this is not true. I'm actually the best example and uh I can tell you my own experience which always was the best because it's firsthand experience with carbohydrates and glycogen. >> Mhm. I uh I'm still training and doing everything the same as I always did 20, 30, 40 years ago. >> I'm always in shape. My workouts um uh usually 45 to 50 minutes and within that time I performed 30 to 40 sets per session. So for example, I have done chest yesterday. I did 30 sets for chest and I did 10 sets for abs and that was all covered in within 50 minutes. So um you just imagine how much glycogen I had to use in order to perform that training session. So uh we are talking reps anywhere from 8 to 12 rest between the sets never more than 60 seconds probably 45 in isolation exercises 30 seconds 45 seconds max. So there is a lot of glycogen going out. Now the question is where do they get this glycogen from? And uh I don't eat any carbohydrates as you know I spoke about that in in the last uh podcast and also in in so many of my videos my viewers know that uh that I don't eat any carbs. I usually eat three meals a day. They are made of protein and fat. Occasionally I may have some salads or pickled veg r I mean rarely but sometimes I do. And this is all I eat. So is predominantly protein and also fat. So the ratio of protein and fat in my diet, I try to be anywhere between two to one. So if I have 300 grams of protein, I will have 150 grams of fat. This is what works for me. And I'm in shape all the time because of that. And you can see my my pictures with my videos that I post on my YouTube channel or my videos and you will see in what kind of shape I am. And I'm constantly in that shape. So where the glycogen comes from I think is a myth that glycogen comes from carbohydrates exclusively. We know that glycogen also comes from gluconioenesis. This is the process that happens in the liver during which liver trans uh converts amino acids and the and glycerol into glycogen. So uh amino acids obviously come from protein and glycerol is the backbone of triglycerides. So when you eat fat triglycerides that they break into fatty acids and glycerol glycerol gets converted into glycogen. So uh we we need to understand one thing that gluconneogenesis will convert as much glycogen as needed. So if you are burning let's say 100 grams of glycogen per session which is probably the case with most people uh there are people who burn even less. Hardly anybody will burn 150 grams of glycogen. This has to be like two hour workout with maybe 50 60 sets or something like that. But in average, we're talking 100 grams of glycogen. So, uh the body will replenish that 100 grams of glycogen within 24 to 48 hours after your session. So, let's say you've done chest on Monday until next Monday, the glycogen in your chest will be fully restored because the body restores glycogen immediately within a day or two. and it will convert the same equivalent of protein. So probably 100 grams of protein will be converted in 100 grams of glycogen. And this is how the body works. So if you eat 300 grams of protein, 100 grams of protein will go into glycogen um replenishment. So there is no other way when you are on low carb diet, but you will still have your glycogen. So now why is that? What is the biggest proof of that? Is that some scientific research? Yes, they have they've done scientific researches and uh there is one there is one done u by Wik and and Finny in 2016. Uh they measured the uh amount of glycogen in uh runners who run three hours before and after. So there were two groups. One group was on keto diet and another one was on high carb diet. So in both of both of cases both group of runners had the same amount of glycogen before the run and also after the run. So this is this is the best proof that if you are keto athlete you will still have your glycogen there at the beginning other end the same as somebody who is on high carbohydrate diet. But actually the much bigger scientific experiment has done has been done throughout evolution to human evolution. So let's look retrospectively how did we evolve? What was the staple food for humans? There were no carbohydrates. There were no cereals, Choco Pops and Choco pop rice, whatever they called. There were no wasn't pasta around or bread. So for hundreds of thousands of years, the staple food for humans was meat, meat and fat. There is a beautiful book uh written the the uh uh land of fat fat of the land sorry >> fat of the land. Yeah. >> Yes. And this is another uh scientific proof. I think it was uh Dr. was it white? >> Vilhr Stefansson. >> Yes. Yeah. Sorry. The the other one was a dentist as far as I remember. So uh he he went uh spent year or more than that with eneits and he actually did follow their diets their diet which was exclusively on on fat and and protein and he came out much healthy in much better shape than he was before we went he went there. So how did we evolve? No carbohydrates, protein and fat. Did humans have their glycogen stores full? Of course they had. They had to have it because they had to fight. They have to run. They have to run to kill. They have to run to save their lives. So the glycogen must be there. It's an evolutionary necessity. So the body will always replenish as much glycogen is needed wherever is needed. So when you train your chest, you burn glycogen from chest. So it's local replenishment. There is not we can't talk about complete total replenishment because it never happens like that. So the body stores anywhere from four to five grams of uh carbo glycogen uh in the muscle cells and then anywhere from 80 to 100 grams of glycogen in the liver for most people. Again depending on on the size and body weight but uh when you train a muscle you will you will burn 100 grams of glycogen and that will be easy job for the body to do within a day or two those 100 grams of locally burned glycogen either there in chest or legs or back will be replenished and then the body will carry on. So if you're training let's say four times per week you're going to have that uh usage of glycogen every single time roughly around 100 grams. You may burn more glycogen when you train your back than your shoulders, but the body will always replenish that local uh amount of glycogen obviously used in particular workouts. So it's absolutely a myth that you need carbohydrates exclusive to replenish glycogen. >> I can explain to you obviously how it goes through the workouts and comparative bodybuilding if if you uh want to know that. And this is another proof that the best results actually come from very low or zero carb carbohydrate diets if you're a bodybuilder. >> Yeah. Well, and that's the thing. I mean, you're a professional coach, so you have you have professional bodybuilders that that you work with and this is presumably the the dietary plan that you have them on. Is that correct? >> Absolutely. Yes. Um most of my clients uh who compete are always on high protein medium fed diet year round. So they're always in a very good shape. Now when the time comes to to compete anywhere from 8 to 12 weeks depending in how good shape they are in the offseason we will start a diet which will be very precise is always very uh personal depending on an individual because I know them. I know how they function, how they train, their metabolism and everything. So we get them in shape within 8 to 12 weeks. So they start training slightly uh higher volume, but uh the amount of carbohydrates is very low or zero. Now I only play with protein and fat. If I need them harder, we will reduce fat a little bit and then you monitor and they get in shape. Now another question is some most of them they train like six times per week. So how do they train six times per week performing 30 40 sets per per session if they don't have glycogen. >> So again where the glycogen comes from is not a miracle is not a mystery. >> It's always from high protein medium fat diet that I I train my athletes with. Also myself I was a competitive bodybuilder. I competed 46 times, won 17 titles, and I know exactly what I've done when I was competing. Obviously, there were days when I didn't know as much as I know now, and I wish I did, but that usually never happens when you are in the middle of the of the battle. You you don't know much as as much you will know later when you learn from your own experience. But every time I have followed the high protein, medium fat, which will end up being high protein, low fat, never zero fat, but low fat. I would be in the best shape. Now, there were days when I used to do that famous carb up. You know, a lot of people probably ask about that, >> carbing up before the show. You need carbs to make you glycogen full. Uh if you carb deplete and then how do you carb deplete? Oh, you stop eating carbs for three, four, five days. That last week before the show, you stop eating carbohydrates and then what happens? Oh, you just eat protein and a little bit of fat and then what happens? Uh oh, you you burn your glycogen really. So I tried to do that and I wanted to be scientific also. So I used kto stick. This is the the measurements of of your ketosis. And I was never in red although I I didn't eat any carbohydrates. So I was trying to to carve deplete as so many tried to do but my keto keto stick was never red. It was pink at most. So I was never in ketosis because I never went so deep that my body didn't have any glycogen. And then what happened the last three days thinking your glycogen stores are depleted you start eating carbohydrates but they're not depleted because of gluconioenesis. Every time you did your days without carbohydrates the body will replace them your glycogen by gluconogenesis. So your car carbs carbohydrate glycogen stores were almost full every single time regardless of your attempt to deplete them. Now you eat carbohydrates. You start with 3 400 grams day one. Then day two you eat 2 250. Then day three you eat 150. At least the the the stigma says that way, right? I believe. And you end up fat and watery and you what you what you have to do now? Or you have to take diuretics. And what are diuretics going to do? They're going to actually drain the water from your muscles mainly. It will never just going to be the water under your skin because it doesn't work like that. So why did you put even fat or why did you retain water? Because you went on carb up simply because not of because of the carbs because of insulin. When insulin goes up, it forces the kidneys to retain more sodium. Hence water retention. And this was the magic vicious cycle that caught me a few times until I realized I learned from other more experienced people that you don't actually do that. Most of them who were always winning shows they would stop eating carbohydrates for three four months and they will end up in fantastic shape good 10 15 days before the show. So once you get that best shape before the show you don't change anything because how did you get there? You get there by high volume, high number of sets, relatively high number of reps for every muscle group, eating high protein, medium fat, or high protein, low fat last few weeks, and you cruise into that best shape. Then you don't change anything, anything. You just relax because you know you're in the best possible shape. Your cut wins around. You're dry. And what what happens most of the time? Oh, I have to carve up. I have to car carve uh deplete and then carb up and then everything goes out of the window. It happened to me a few times. I lost few few shows just because of that. But now with my clients actually I don't do that anymore and I get them in top shape uh for every single show. So this is the story of carbing up and uh eating carbohydrates for energy. Most people before the show trend more than ever, more than offseason, and they don't eat any carbs. How's that possible? How can you trend more without glycogen? Yes, you can because you're still having glycogen thanks to gluconioenesis, an evolutional development that is always with us. So, you either ignore it or you accept it. That's it. >> Yeah. And I like I like how you brought up the the faster trial as well. Um that's the the Volk and Finey trial in 2016. Um so they called it the faster trial where they had the glycogen before three-hour run and straight after. They also checked 3 hours after that after recovery. and the carb athletes that were sucking down sugary packets and gels and things like that, they recovered at the exact same rate that the car uh ketogenic group did with their natural uh uh you know re replic reproduction of of glycogen and storage in their muscles and their liver. So I mean these were muscle biopsies specifically but you can you can extrapolate that that they would have a similar similar replenishment of their glycogen in their liver as well and and interestingly you know no drop off in performance and that's the other thing that people it's it's very strange people really get infatuated with carbohydrates because when you when you look at the the fat oxidization so in in the faster trial and other trials they look they look at the oxidization rate or or the amount of energy burned from different sources. And in the faster trial, they actually found um that they were still burning fat fat oxidization in their muscles at over 90% V2 max. And then that's when it was started to shift over. But in other trials from professor Nos down in South Africa, they actually found that you could they would still be uh that the the transition point when they were switch from predominantly fat oxidization in their muscles to predominantly car carbohydrates was at 86% V2 max for some of these people. So that's far above the 50 55% V2 max that normally people would say, "Yeah, that's when you switch into carbs. can't be a high performance athlete un without carbs because you know you after 55% V2 max you're going to be predominantly burning carbs and that's only if you're a carbohydrate athlete and so if you're a ketogenic athlete it's mostly fat oxidization and then your body is more than capable of of replenishing glycogen and using the blood sugar because like you said in the in the glycerol pathway so there there's multiple different pathways for glucanogenesis those are the those are two major ones uh the glycerol pathway For every unit of triglycerides that you pop off the fat, you're going to have a glycerol backbone that that can be turned into glucose and glycogen. So for every unit of fat that you're burning to generate your your exercise, you are necessarily making a specific percentage of glucose and glycogen. So you're constantly replenishing your glucose per demand. So the harder you're working, the more glucose and glycogen you're producing through the glycerol pathway. Also, the lactate pathway. Um, people don't understand that that they think that the body's just catabolizing, breaking down protein that breaks down your muscles. That's not true. That's only one one pathway. Early on in in fasting, you'll have more more protein, but then when you get into deeper ketosis is predominantly glycerol and then lactate as well. So, when you're pushing yourself really hard, that lactate gets recycled into glycogen again. And so, that's another another form. And even when eating carbohydrates, your body's always going through some form of glucanogenesis and you typically have it the same amount. So you're going to produce on an average sedentary day anywhere from, you know, 40 to 80 gram of glucose when you're eating carbohydrates and also when you're not eating carbohydrates. So actually doesn't change. So people say, "Well, this puts you in a stressed state." It actually doesn't. It's an automatic sort of response. And when you're exercising, you're produc you're breaking down that fat and you're producing more glycogen as a result of that per demand. And um and so that's that's very um you know that that's a very telling study as well. Um and the but the thing that I find interesting is that people will look at that and you'll say okay so in the NOS's trial they found that people were actually burning 1.8 8 g of fat per minute, which ends if you calculate that out, that ends up being about a,000 calories per minute or sorry, per hour that they that they're burning. That's a very high rate. That's sort of like the um uh the tour to France, like their their average uh energy expenditure would be about 1,000 calories an hour. And they found that in ketosis, you can just get that from fat. And that's at that inflection point when they've actually started to burn carbs as well. So maybe that's only 60% of the energy that they're burning was was that 1,000 calories from fat. So you're talking about another 600 calories, 700 calories from glucanogenesis, right? So the then the argument is, well, you're not going to have as much of an explosive workout. You're not going to be able to lift weights. You're not going to be able to do that. Or they if they're endurance athletes say, well, you can do the weightlifting. You can do sprinting like rugby, but you can't do tour to France. or you could do a marathon, but you're never going to be doing explosive work like rugby or bodybuilding. Whatever sport is the opposite of what they do and what they're trying to defend, they always say, "Well, you could do that one, but obviously not my sport." And if that if that were the case, then people would have to explain that energy dynamic. You know, if you're producing 1,00-,600 calories of energy per hour and your exercise only takes you 800 calories an hour or 1,000 calories an hour, what is stopping you? What where's the roadblock from that? Well, I guess those those energy units aren't as good as these other energy units from carbohydrates. They'd have to sort of they'd have to argue why if a calorie is just a calorie is just a calorie. And these are the same people that say that. Then why is it that when you're when you're burning more calories and and generating more energy that that's not sufficient for whatever exercise you're doing? It's never actually made sense to me. There's a lot of circular reasoning uh that they use. >> So yeah. >> Yes. I also I also trained loads of marathon runners by the way. And there was a guy in the gym who who is really athletic and uh he does different sports and marathon is one of his he's not a professional marathon runner but he's still doing it because he likes to do these multiple sports and they spoke about his time and all that. So I said what is your diet? They says oh you know typical you know high carb, medium protein, low fat. How many times do you eat per day? Oh five six. You have to eat five six times per day. And I said yeah I know that you have to eat. Now, do you know why you have to eat? And I I can only eat twice a day. >> And then he looked at me with a smile. I was like, what is this guy talking about? I mean, everybody is eating five, six, seven times per day because you have to. >> And I said, exactly. The question that I'm having is why do you have to? You have to because you don't even know what is going on. you're constantly, you know, fluctuating between that high glucose levels and drop and crush and then you have to, you know, eat again in order to bring your glucose up because you're fully dependent on carbohydrates. Well, I'm not. I said I had five hours ago and I'm training now and my training is going to be massive. You will never be able to perform that many sets in in 45 minutes. So, he he got like intrigued and said, "Oh, why is that? Can you explain to me?" says, "Look, if you're running that marathon, you'll be much better if you stop eating carbohydrates because during the marathon, how many times you have to grab stop and grab those jellies which are full of sugar." Do you ever thought about why you were doing that? Oh, because you need sugar. But you see how natural that is that you run, let's say, whatever. It doesn't have to be 26 miles, 24. Actually, just look like we just lost your your volume there. You have me back. Oh, >> there it is. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, the question was, why do you have to take those jellies, the glucose supplements every every hour, every two hours? Oh, because I'm losing sugar. So, he said, what if you don't have to? What if you rely on fat? Then you will be having much more energy simply because this is unlimited amount of energy in your body. And he tried to do that and his time >> improved for 20%. And he was he was absolutely you know gobs godsmark because he could not believe that all his life he's about 40 something that for 20 years he's been doing wrong and now he's he cut his carbs he's eating three times per day he lost lots of weight. He looks much better runs his marathons better than ever and feels 10 times better. And every time he sees me in the gym he has to come and hug me and says now she saved my life. His life is much better now. I don't think about food. I used to carry it back with me constantly. Was so hysterical about eating >> so many times per day. Now he says, I'm so relaxed and I feel fantastic. >> And I said, you're not just feeling, you're looking fantastic. You constantly lean. I can see your legs are split, your calves are split, everything is great. So it's another example. So yeah, it's stigma. The stigma and also comfort comfort zone because carbs are easier to eat. They are more they're tasty >> also they're addictive they pump you with all these good well-being hormones like dopamine and you know when people are depressed or stressed what they do they eat what they eat chocolate ice cream biscuits to feel better >> that's you know this is where the story starts and the story ends basically so why when you are when you are stressed or anything like that you should eat nothing you should not eat because you're in completely different um hormone al environment you are in a in a in a sympathetic mode which is absolutely opposite to state of eating that your physiology prefers and this is parasympathetic. So well everything goes uh give me give me give me let me feel good. So this is the story of carbs. >> Yeah. But if you want to feel better, if you want to look better, if you want to be healthier for life and there are so many studies on that uh lation actually that that uh we mentioned earlier on >> that actually prove that you will going to end up having much healthier life. >> Yeah. >> In the later stages than if you're constantly stuffing yourself with carbs. >> Yeah. Well, yeah, definitely. I mean, especially for athletes, right? Because you know the the glycation, the sugar damage where you got these advanced glycation end products where glucose and other carbohydrates fuse to these different molecules and damage them. That damages your arteries. That's the leading cause of cardiovascular disease, heart disease, leading cause of kidney failure, leading cause of adult onset blindness, leading cause of having to get your legs amputated is damaging those vessels from high high carbohydrates. It also damages your joints. It damages the discs in your spine. you know, so degenerative spines, degener degenerative knees, degenerative shoulders. This is I mean these are the the the athletes toolbox, you know, you have you have a skilled, you know, craftsman u can't do much without his his tools. You have you have Michelangelo is not going to make the David without, you know, a sharp chisel. So, you know, our our joints are our equipment and our our um you know, are the tools that we use to be athletes and glycation damages the the cartilage as well. And so, this is what we find when we do we take out cartilage out of joints, knees, shoulders, even degenerative discs in the spine. I found I found evidence and studies for every single joint taking out connective tissue cartilage that showed that there's extensive glycation uh damage advanced glycation end products in all of them. And so that helps preserve your body for longer and you can be an athlete for longer. You can be athletic for longer. You have a much longer career and and then it doesn't come at the sacrifice of not being able to walk when you're 60, right? you're you're you can just you can still be an athlete at 60. And so that's a very very important one as well, the longevity aspect that people don't don't think enough about. Um I was going to say as well, it's a it's a very good point that you made about how much protein you have because I make this point to people all the time that you it's not that you need necessarily a certain ratio of fat and protein. You need enough protein. You need enough fat and that depending on what you're doing is different. You know, if you're pregnant, it's going to be different. If you're sedentary, it's going to be different. If you're working out all the time and lifting weights three, you know, 5 days a week, 6 days a week is going to be different. So, someone like yourself, a bodybuilder, you're you're building, maintaining a lot of musculature, you're going to need more protein. So, that that ratio is going to look different than someone who's a bit more sedentary. Um, and uh and doesn't need all that much protein. And so when when just a normal public life if I I talking to a patient I would tend to say usually that range is about 1 to 2 g of actually fat to protein. But obviously if you're an athlete, if you're a bodybuilder, you're trying to put on muscle mass, that's going to change and you're going to need more of the protein side as well. And so that's a very good demonstration of that concept. It's not just don't be rigid and adhere to like this is the exact ratio that I need, but give your body what it demands for what you're doing is a I think that was a very good point that you brought up. Um, one thing as well, you know, what about what about the magic? Um, you have to have carbs to build muscle. If you don't eat carbs, you can't build muscle. What about that that old uh chestnut? >> Well, this is another stigma. I mean what what would what would carbohydrates do with the muscle tissue? >> Why would you why do why you you cannot build muscle if you don't eat carbohydrates? Carbohydrates are simply energy for the body. There's nothing more than that. There is no nutritional value in them because for that fact the simp essential carbohydrates and we have essential amino acids and we also have essential fatty acids but we don't have anything which is essential regarding carbohydrates. The simple answer to that is because you don't need them. You can always produce them from fret from protein from from ketones. Glycogen can turn into from lactate. So there there are so many different pathways that the body will always produce glucose. This is why we don't have anything which is called essential carbohydrate. But you have essential amino acids and you have essential fatty acids. So you need them for muscle growth. I mean so many times I have always uh repeated the fact that uh the best bodybuilders according to me who were bodybuilders in 70s and 80s uh who didn't rely exclusively on steroids but relied on training as the major factor for muscle growth. They exclusively followed high protein medium fat diet. Some of them ate a bit of carbohydrates. Most of them didn't even eat them. How did they do it? Just look at those bodies. Those bodies are made uh they are like paradigms of of human aesthetics. Everybody wants to look like Serge Nubra. Everybody wants to look like Frank Zayn or Bob Paris or Arnold Schwarzenegger. Everybody wants to look like that. Nobody wants to look like people today on the stage. Yeah. You want to watch them because this is a freak show now. >> And it sells. Yes. Is a freak show. These people are >> It's very ridiculous. I remember in my days when I competed when I trained I went and trained with um Serge Nubé and I also trained with Lee Haney and I trained with Mike Christian and few other blood of professional bodybuilders in London amazing guys and we all dependent on training. This is why we had to do high volume, high reps. This is why we train muscle 30 40 sets once a week. You leave that muscle to recover. Not just muscle but the whole unit connective tissues as well central ner nervous system and then you train it again next week and we all relied on training workout was the most important factor for growth nowadays is not it's secondary now primary driver for muscle growth muscle growth today are obviously exogenous compounds steroids insulin growth hormone in super huge amounts and people are changing they imagine a beginner enters the gym now and in two years. He's like three times his size when he started and he competes already and in three four years it's it's professional. How did you do that? We couldn't do that. I couldn't do that. >> It's impossible. If you rely on training is the major factor for growth. So if you if the training is the major factor for growth, then you have to follow the diet which is low in carbohydrates, high in protein because you need that to build tissue. So you need protein not carbs. Now where are people confused? People are confused because they see so many advanced bodybuilders or professional bodybuilders or coaches today who are mainly concerned about professional bodybuilding who are advocating high amount of carbohydrates but they don't tell you the whole story. You know, every sentence starts after that word but you know this is good but you should do this but yeah but you need to say that second part of the sentence explain to people how can somebody eat three four 500 grams of carbs and still maintain decent shape. This is impossible to do without insulin, exogenous insulin because this is a powerful agent that literally shovels glucose into glycogen and increases glycogen stores. And if you are a natural bodybuilder or or even somebody who is taking a reasonable or low amount of steroids is not going to work for you. I deal with people like that all the time. I also have professional bodybuilders who for the reason mentioned have to eat six seven times per day and have to have 50 to 70 grams of carbs even 100 grams of carbs in every meal. But I have given you the second part of the sentence after that but so now you put yourself in any camp. If you want to be a professional bodybuilder and take everything that you have to because everybody does. So you need to be on a on the same plane. That's one story. But if you are natural or if you are just taking reasonable amount of steroids or minimum amount of steroids, then this is not going to work for you. You will benefit more from low carb, no carb, high protein, high fat, medium fat, low fat depending on individual activities. But protein is is ab is a structural component is a building block. So carbohydrates have nothing to do with growth. Absolutely nothing. I had a a good friend of mine who has unfortunately passed away a few years ago, Nasel Sati. He was one of the best bodybuilders in the world. He should have beat Dorian Yates in 97 on Olympia. He finished second. I knew very well. I remember NASA uh in 90 I think it was 89 uh I won in 1988 in Yugoslavia he heavyweight division he didn't compete that year he competed in 1987 I think he was as good as everybody was but then he came two years later and he was he put about 10 15 kgs of muscle you know on that level when you're 100 and now you're 115 you look double in size, right? >> Mhm. >> So I said, we were very good. So I said, Nas, how do you do this? Oh, I said, you know what? You have to understand we we never ate enough protein. He said, what are you talking about? He said, Nash, I'm pushing four 500 grams of protein a day now. He said, Nas, what are you talking about? He said, if you want to put more, you have to eat more. But he didn't say carbs, eat protein. >> Now, we went for a dinner, right? And there was a a lot of people there and we all ordered um steak and u jacked potatoes to roast potatoes. Everybody was doing that a bit of salad. NASA ordered two steaks, >> no carbs and steaks in Serbia are massive. They are probably one pound in in in meat in in weight. And he ordered two. And he was sitting next to me and I was looking at him. I said, "You don't eat anything else? No salad, no potatoes." She said, "No, you don't need it. All you need is this sitting next to me." So, I mean, guys, what else do you want? >> You're not going to hear this anywhere. I'm talking about Nasati. He was my friend. We were very close and he was telling me everything. We didn't hide anything. He was a I mean, with me, at least he was sharing everything. So this fact that NASA didn't eat half a steak and three pounds of potatoes, but he had zero potatoes and two pounds of steak is usually the best uh story that that that should explain to you the importance of most obviously essential compound which is protein, nothing to do with carbs. >> Yeah. And I I really I really uh was interested when um last time we spoke I was sort of wondering like where where did this whole carbohydrate thing come from? Because you know in the golden era you know 70s ' 80s wasn't anything about carbohydrate. I mean you'd have some maybe but they weren't just car bloating like crazy like they say that's what you have to do now and you you had mentioned that about insulin that's what Dorian Yates first started really just exploding into the mass monster era and started using a lot of insulin and and they sort of we end up getting the carton before the horse people you know because he was taking all this insulin he had to take the carbohydrates as well or he'd slip into a coma and die and we sort of get that backwards he's taking the insulin as a as a growth hormone and he has to have carbs to to not die. And then we flip that around and people think, "Oo, I have to have carbohydrates. That's the end goal. Carbohydrates will make me big and carbohydrates will raise some insulin and that will give this effect." Like, well, to an extent, but your body has a limitation on how much insulin it can pump out. It's not going to be able to produce as much insulin as you can inject. And so it's, you know, you can eat the same amount of carbs, but you won't get the same jump in your insulin. You'll get more glycation. You'll get more damage. It'll take longer to get that out of your system. And so I found that that very interesting. You know, the other thing was is, you know, we talked about this as well was there are more and more studies coming out now showing that not only can you build the same amount of muscle or or have no impedance in building muscle on a ketogenic diet, there's a meta analysis uh that came out um a few years ago showing that you don't need carbohydrates for hypertrophy as long as you're matching protein. So if you have the same if it's protein match between two groups ketogenic or carbohydrate group still build um the same amount of muscle but now there are more studies coming out now showing that that glycation those advanced glycation end products can actually damage and hinder hypertrophy and muscle growth. So this could actually be a burden to uh muscle growth. So there's a number of studies but that that the AGES block uh muscle hypertrophy in both humans and animals. um and uh and can and lead um to a to skittleal muscle atrophy. That was a brand new study that came out uh review that came out in 2026, just this year. So um there's a lot of these different things. I'll I'll put um those links in the in the in the bio or in the description here along with the faster trial and the other things we've been talking about so people can take a look at them. But this this is coming out in the literature now. We have faster trials showing that you don't have any dropping gly uh uh glycogen in your muscles before, after, and 3 hours after recovery. You have the mixweeni 2018 trial showing that ketogenic athletes outperform carbohydrate fuel athletes as long as they've been um keto adapted for at least 3 months on a 100 mile run, a 6-second sprint, and a powerlifting test. So, all the different ways you can move your body athletically, the ketogenic group beat them. And now we have study after metaanalyses of studies showing that you as long as protein is matched being in ketosis. So zero carbohydrates you're getting the same muscle hypertrophy. And in fact that too much excess glycation can actually hinder and block uh muscle hypertrophy as well. It can damage the extracellular um uh tissue and actually impede muscle hypertrophy and and slow you down. So doing exactly what we've been told for 30 years is going to make you a better athlete and uh and build muscle faster could actually be doing the opposite. >> Yes. Absolutely. Yes. I mean um the the another thing that a lot of people forget is that you know it's not only about few years of your bodybuilding life when you're 20 or 30 maybe. So for five, six, maybe 10 years. And then after that, what happens after that? Oh, I don't care when I get >> after 30. I don't care when I'm 30. >> And then you have others saying, I don't care when I'm 40. Or you will care because you will get 30 and you will get 40. And for most people actually life starts when they get into that age because most of things in life are actually much better. people are more settled and they know exactly a little bit more about life and uh sorry, you can you can continue to grow muscles. You can still keep yourself in fantastic shape and and have a great life, whatever you do, without having terrifying injuries as as we've seen with lot of people who have been exposed to all these tremendous amount of exogenous compounds, steroids, insulin and the and the growth hormone. And you know the bad stories that that has have happened in the sport. This is the obviously the part of the whole >> picture is that wrong attitude towards food. There are a lot of bodybuilders, not just bodybuilders, other athletes who are now obese, who are disabled, who have their muscles torn, hips replaced, shoulder joints, knees replaced, all gone. What is happening to them now when they are 40 or 50? If you want to go that way, if you really don't care what's going to happen when you're 30 or 40 or 50 or 60, then you are, you know, you're playing a Russian roulette with your life. You can do whatever you want. You may be successful for a few years, but what is going to happen on your on a metabolically with you when you get older, how are you going to perform? What about your cartilages, mobility, etc. This is a different story. So when I when I advise people about best possible way of training and the best possible way of dieting, this is not just for quick fix. I don't want people to be in shape only for competitions. I want them to be in shape year round to look good to have happy life, healthy life every year for the rest of their lives. Not just now for for a month and then what happens? You see them, oh now I'm in the offse. I'm bulking. No, you're not bulking. You're just getting fat, full of water. You high blood pressure, B retention, sodium, you're stressing your kidneys, everything. Glycation is happening without you knowing it. So why you doing that? People are doing that simply because people humans are generally lazy. Now food is cheap, is everywhere. So, it's it's nice to eat all these rice and pasta and have ice cream here and there and pizza and and then, you know, I get in shape before the show, but what about the rest of your life? Every the whole year, you're looking you're just looking wrong and and you're metabolically wrong as well. >> That's the problem. So, when I talk and I give advice is usually related to healthy eating and best way of exercising in order to be in shape year round for the rest of your life. Mhm. >> This is the point. So guys, if you want to be really good-looking and in good shape and in good health for the rest of your life, I think there are a lot of good advice that you can benefit from today on our discussion. >> Yeah, definitely. And and that's the way I look at it as well. It's I mean, yes, you can you maybe modify things to get a specific result like in bodybuilding, etc., but like you said, I mean, you know, what got you there? What got you into that good shape? Why change something right at the last minute? and then and then do something different right before competition. You know, that's that doesn't really make sense. You know, there's old saying, don't don't change um you don't change a horse mid race. You know, you know, the thing that's that's getting you the results that you want and then and then and stick with it. Um but also I you know, I look at this for health and just long-term health uh for for the rest of people's lives, not just a a quick fix and churn and burn. You know, that's the the that's the the sort of, you know, when people try to disparage a a carnivorous diet or a ketogenic diet, they say, "Well, this works short term, but you wouldn't want to do it long term. This is harmful long term." Or people will do it to get some quick results. Um, you know, reverse their diabetes quickly and reverse their autoimmunity quickly, but then it then it'll be bad. Like, I don't think people are really listening to themselves. If you're reversing diabetes, you're reversing autoimmunity, you're losing weight, you're improving your health, that that's that's actually going to give you long-term benefits. You're not going to reverse multiple sclerosis, diabetes, and and heart failure, and then somehow that's going to kill you or something. That's really bad. It's bad to reverse autoimmunity. It's bad to reverse heart failure for some reason. That it doesn't really make sense. So, this is this is this is for health first and foremost. for for me this I'm looking from a patient perspective you're looking at from a from an athletic perspective as well um and you know and I have I have I work with athletes as well and but it's the same thing I mean look you you this is how our body is fueled you eat what your body needs you give your body what it's supposed to have and you exclude out things that can be detrimental your body should work well or or optimally whether you're sedentary sitting on the couch or you know crushing it as a professional athlete. So you know it's just do the thing that's going to make you healthiest longest. You'll get the best results from a health perspective and athletic perspective. >> Okay. Let me tell you something very simple. I'm 64, right? >> Mhm. >> I still do the same workouts as I did when I was 20, 30, 40, 50. >> Nothing changed. >> Nothing changed. I train five times per week. I do 30 sets per session. Never longer than 50 minutes. Um, my girlfriend is doing the same with me and people are coming and saying to me, "This is impossible. There is no way. I cannot I'm not going to spend three hours in the gym to do 30 sets." >> Yeah. >> I mean, I'm doing it now and I'm all covered in veins. My legs are split. People think when they see me that I'm going to be competing in a week or two >> and I'm not. I don't want to compete anymore. And my last show is in 1995. >> So, I'm just cruising now. I'm maintaining and I'm very happy with the shape and the strength and obviously ab abilities. I don't have any pain in my knees, hips, shoulders, elbows, zero injuries, zero. I had a massive competitive career of 10 years. I've done fantastic results. So, how is this possible? What do I do? What do I take? I just do what I'm I'm saying. High volume. Uh never go to failure. One rep, two reps, shy of failure, protein, high protein, medium fat diet, no carbs. This is what I do. And if that is not enough, let me tell you this. I recently uh launched in March 90 days transformation challenge and I accepted only 20 people who are now going through >> and those 20 people in that particular challenge have sent me images when they started and now every month they are sending me new images and you will see everybody is on the same diet the same program slightly modified depending on individual depending on their fitness experience and um level but Uh, you should see how they change. I'm talking four weeks. Every month they send me different new pictures and the changes are remarkable, unbelievable. And the comments, their comments are uh unreal. They they never thought this would be possible. And uh after 3 months, so end of uh uh May, I'm going to choose the guy who has achieved the best transformation. and I'm going to introduce him to my viewers in the special video in which I will do the interview with the guy and he will say because they're all men for some reason no women join >> it was open for everyone but this is the story this time I'll do this again in May I'll do the new one and uh you should see how people change immediately four weeks I'm not talking four months four years in four weeks >> I just got few of the clients who participants who send me images yesterday and day before and the guy said I never had sixpack in my life. I I thought I I will never have it. >> And now he started have seeing it and imagine he is in his 50s. He was literally quite you know fat and now the six in four weeks the six [ __ ] started coming through. This is and we all do this online. I don't even train them onetoone personally live obviously in person but they are still changing. Why? Because they are following the advice. And what is the advice once again is high volume workout is um high protein, medium fat, low carb or zero carb. This is the secret, the mystery, the mystery for life. >> Yeah. >> So yeah, this is the key that unlocks all these mysterious doors. >> Yeah. >> And uh and it's happening over and over again. I mean in the last 35 years with over three and a half thousand clients the story repeats itself again and again and again. >> So um I I also have a lot of uh nosayers who are religiously connected to carbohydrates. I don't know why. It's not my problem. Probably there are different reasons psychological or you know pleasures or beliefs whatever but they simply don't want to hear these things. And everything is transparent. I mean, my son is doing the same. He looks fantastic. He's 25. He's about 967 kgs. Natural. Never doesn't even take vitamins. >> Mhm. >> Minerals, nothing. Just two, three meals a day. High protein, medium fat. That's it. >> End of story. >> Yeah. Fantastic. >> Very simple for us. It's very simple. You know what you're doing. You look amazing. >> And you're wondering why why are people complicating so much? Just copy and paste and that's it. Simple. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> You're trying to to deliver this message, but you know. >> Yeah. Well, you know, you can lead you can lead a horse to water. You can't make them drink. You know, show them all this and show them all the evidence, but then, you know, then there's there's someone else and and they're saying similar things. Um but, you know, do they back it up? You know, do they have the performance um you know, to back it up? Have they been um you know, competing at this level? are there as as many people getting these results? You know, you could say, well, there's this one, you know, vegetarian bodybuilder who does a bunch of steroids and is not all that built. He just looks like an average guy at the gym, but, you know, he has been vegetarian. That there was a guy in the the Game Changers that did that. And he had sort of been he he would eat eggs, but um most of that was vegetables. And then for the Game Changers thing, he dropped eggs and he said, "Wow, this made everything so much better." Well, maybe it did, maybe it didn't, but you know, either way, he's going to have to take a lot of supplements and protein and vegan protein and thises and thats and vitamins and minerals and do steroids. And and the thing is, he doesn't even look like he's on steroids on steroids. So, it's like like his body is just not he's just I mean I I looked like him when I was 17, you know, just just eating meat and working out a lot, you know, and and playing playing sports, you know, basically for you know, a decade at that point. And um you know, and they'll take that one person and say, "Look at this look at this out look at this person that proves it." like, well, no, it doesn't because the vast majority of people eating that way don't don't look like that. And um and can't look like that even with supplements and unless they do take steroids or something like that. But we see everybody who does this, eating fat and protein, no carbs, um even full carnivore, we see all of them do this. We see all of them lose body fat. We see all of them put on muscle, lean body mass. Yeah. I' I've I have patients that are in their 80s putting on muscle and that's very hard to do. And it's and it's that's something that is not just for vanity. That's something that can save your life because there's a there's a very strong association between muscle mass and longevity and and also independence. And most people don't want to live to be 90 or 100 or 110 if they're spending 30 of those years in a nursing home bedridden, right? That's not that's not something that they want. So, this is a matter of keeping your your your um your independence. You mean you you keep working out like this, you're never going to have a problem. You're never going to be in a nursing home. You're never going to be any any have any issue with your mobility, having falls, broken hips, things like that. Neither am I. And that's because, you know, we're we're staying healthy and we're not giving that up. But I even have patients that were in nursing homes that then changed to this and were able to come out of nursing homes and start putting on muscle at 86, you know, and so, you know, the odds of you doing that on a vegetarian diet, even with all of the the supplements and vitamins and protein powders and things like that, is is next to zero. I mean, I I would be very surprised if there was even one example of someone having done that. I have a client who is almost 80 now and he's one of the best bodies in the gym. He's training five times per week. Is uh he says I only there is only one Bible in my life. I said which one is that? His name is Rogan >> and he says this is your book the ultimate nutrition >> which I published in 2010. >> So Rogan has been with me since 2000 26 years. >> Yeah. Wow. >> And I post pictures of Rogan everywhere. People just can't believe he's all covered in brains. >> He's on He lives He drives a Ferrari, by the way. >> Oh, yeah. >> 30 years old. Yeah. Why not? >> Yeah. >> Why not? >> Exactly. >> Why not? And he came he came to me and he was uh he was a marathon runner. No legs, no arms, big belly running. >> You can run forever. >> And he said to me, "You know what? One day I thought to myself, I look in the mirror. I said, "Rogen, you've been running for 30 years and uh look at you. You want to be like this?" "No." >> So I said, "I have to start going to the gym." So he came to me. He was uh 54 in 2000. >> And from that I turned him into superhuman and now he's 80. and you see him walking like if you see him from behind you will probably think he's some guy like 40 years old or something like that. >> Mhm. >> He's so strong, stable. He's not huge but he's all muscular. He's it's just an people are stopping him on the street and saying can I ask you something? How old are you? Because they can't believe the body they see and somebody who is you know not in in his youngest days. >> And it's fascinating but it's not magic. It's possible. Obviously Rogan is very disciplined. He eats five six eggs in the morning. Then about 300 350 grams of meat in in the for lunch and uh another either fish or chicken legs or something in the evening. A bit of veg here and there. Carbs zero. And he keeps my book next to his bed. >> He says every night I read my Bible. >> Yeah. Nice. >> And this is this is actually the book in which I talk about even in 2010. Yes. I think is that year when I published it and that's uh all about high protein and fat diet no carbs and explain why. >> So um again it's it's so transparent in in the real world. It's just uh it's just what you choose to do. >> Yeah, absolutely. Um, so just one one last thing I wanted to to touch on before we we finished up was the um, you know, you mentioned before we we got on was it's not about necessarily how much protein you eat, but also how much you absorb and and actually able to utilize. Can you can you explain what you mean by that? Well, for a long time now from probably my awakening in bodybuilding when I realized actually that uh I need to change my training. So from heavy duty principles I went into high volume and also when I realized that the high protein diet, a low carb diet is something that I need to follow. I started talking about the same thing which I emphasize today even more in all my videos. And this is that you know the old saying you are what you eat >> is not true. You are not what you eat. You are what you absorb. Because you can eat 300 grams of protein in six meals with carbohydrates or you can eat 300 grams of protein in three meals with fats, no carbohydrates. And you will absorb that protein very differently. So when you eat smaller portions, especially with carbs, you will have high um spikes not only of glucose but also of protein. So when you eat chicken and rice, chicken, breast, and rice, no fat, you're going to have massive spike in glucose and in amino acids. So everybody who doubts that can check themselves check their blood two two hours after you eat chicken and rice you will see what is going to happen to your spike. So insulin will be high and that insulin will wipe out not just glucose but also most of amino acids and use them as energy wherever they go. They can be used for energy or stored for energy. So amino acids are going to be wasted because of the spike. So you don't want the spike. You don't want six, seven small meals of carbs and protein only. You want something else. You want three meals, 100 grams of protein, 50 to 60, 70 depending again grams of fat per meal. But you want those meals to be spread through the day. You want five six hours between each meal. Now what happens now? Now because of fat content in the in the meal, your digestion will be slower. So you will be releasing amino acids slower in your bloodstream meaning there is not going to be a spike of amino acid. So you will you're going going to have sustained release of amino acids. So all these 100 grams of protein will be utilized much more efficiently than if you have 40 50 grams few times per day. This is very different and you will absorb them better. They will end up where they should be. And this is why not just me but so many of my clients also golden era people like Serge Nubé and similar they didn't eat too many meals per day. There are occasions with people at only twice per day high amount of protein and fat zero carbs and they all ended up in amazing shape. The reason for that is not magical is that sustained release of amino acids and this is how human body works. This is what human physiology prefers because you need to reset your hormones. So insulin comes but it drops down has time to drop down before your next meal. But when you eat all the time you your insulin is always high. You're always in that elevated state of insulin. You're hyperinsulinemic and this is not good for you. Not just for muscle, not just for putting on fat. It's not good for your health, your metabolic health. You want that insulin low and you will you want sustained release of amino acids. You don't want any spikes. And this principle, this approach to diet will benefit you more for growth and also keep you in shape. Especially if you're natural and again if you're not abusing steroids if you're somebody who is super abusing steroids taking insulin and growth hormone and other compounds like IGF-1 for example not to mention the whole plethora of you know magic bullets >> then the story is very different I'm not talking about that I'm not interested in that. >> Yeah. So then you need to find somebody else to teach you how how many units 20 to 40 units of insulin when to take them fast insulin slow insulin what to eat to carry bag full of sugar with you because when you start wobbling and shaking on the street or in the car or in the tube you will have to suck that sugar and stop and or you're just going to faint as so many people did. So I'm not interested in that that scenario that those movies they require different producer and and uh uh managers. So I don't talk about that. I'm talking about natural people and people who don't not abuse their just take small amount because I work with people like that and they all respond fantastic. So um yes, another big problem with the high protein diet is that people often come to me and said, "Oh, I cut my carbs. I feel flat. I have no energy. I lost my strength." So the problem most of the time is number one, they don't eat enough protein. So they were maybe on 150 grams of protein, 300 grams of carbs. They cut 300 grams of carbs, but they don't increase protein or they just increase for to up to 200. So they have a massive gap in caloric intake and of course you're going to start fainting not just not lifting heavy weights because you have cut your caloric intake into half or more than that not to mention fat. That's the second problem. On high protein diet you have to have fat because otherwise you you if you just eat protein is going to be spiking quickly because protein on its own is digested very quickly. This is why you have to have fat in your diet. This is where steak and eggs come up. If you have a choice between chicken breast and chicken legs, you should eat chicken legs. Maybe with skin as well because all these connective tissue, skin, they connect, they they they're very important for you. They're full of collagen, some amount of vitamin C as well. And uh chicken breast doesn't have none of it. So, if you still want to eat chicken breast, put some cheese on the top. Increase the fat content. That's the best choice because on its own, chicken breast is fast digesting protein. almost not the same but almost the same like a whey protein shake. >> So when you have whey protein shake it just shoots into your bloodstream immediately. So what happens? Nobody knows what happens. You have a spike of amino acids and 50 grams of whey protein maybe 25 maybe 30 40 we don't know that will end up as energy but not as what you want. It's not going to be muscle building blocks. So for that to happen you have to eat diet which is basically the staple human diet. It was never weight protein shake and chicken breast with broccoli. It was always either a steak or eggs or fatty parts of the meat. And this is how we evolved. This is our u physiological environment. This is how human body uh blossoms, flourishes when it when you put that in your body and everybody who does immediately feels that well-being factor. Oh, I'm I'm feeling so light. I'm full of energy. Uh I'm my mind is bright. I know I have brain fog since I cut carbohydrates. Yes, these are the consequences. So, uh again, you know, for you and me, things are very transparent. I we are having such a hard time you know bringing this to the to the masses of people but whoever tries this I mean uh everybody can just go and and read the comments on my videos on YouTube >> this is amazing it's simply amazing just just read what other people say people who follow this type of diet and this type of training and it works exclusively for everyone this is another amazing thing. It's very very rarely that somebody when people have a problem as I said they either don't increase protein or they don't put fat into their diet. >> Yeah. >> So yeah and um yeah all all very good points and you know going back to the sort of the plant-based way of eating here is is that that whole point doesn't matter how many grams of protein are in you know your your your brown rice and lentils. It it matters what you absorb and the bioavailability is very low because we are not designed to eat these things because we don't have the biochemistry and the enzymes to break down and extract those nutrients. That is that is all the proof that you need. Some people need a lot more but really that's all you need. We don't have the enzymes to break these things down and extract these these these nutrients. And so that is that is clear proof that we are not designed to eat them where you can get 100% of these uh nutrients typically from meat. Um but from plants you can there's low bioavailability sometimes it's only you maybe you're getting 2/3 maybe you're getting a third maybe you're getting 0%. Uh gluten is a protein this predominant protein found in wheat. It has zero% bioavailability. You get you get none of those proteins. All it does is damage your gut. That's it. So, we need to understand that. And these these studies and these activists for pushing a more plant-based approach, they say, "Well, the the the the protein from plants are better." Well, what what is that based on? It's not it's not based on on any actual uh metric of health. Um and you know, it doesn't have it doesn't have a complete set of um proteins and essential and conditionally essential proteins. That's a really important one, the conditionally essential proteins, amino acids, because things like carnitine and torine we supposedly make but not but under certain circumstances, pregnancy, bodybuilding, these sorts of things, your demands can be higher than your body can naturally meet and so that would then make it so you'd have to get it from your diet. Torine and carnitine are only found in meat. uh when you eat a lot of fiber, you end up needing more torine because you make torine in your liver that's expelled in your bile and bile gets bound up by uh fiber and then and then you lose it. You don't absorb it anymore. So you actually lose the torine with that. So people that are on a high fiber diet have low torine and um and then there are people that genetically just don't make enough uh torine or carnitine to begin with and so they actually require this from their diet at all times. And plants just don't contain that. They also don't contain the right proportions of these amino acids because again we're not designed for these things. But when when our DNA codes for any molecule and those are strings of of amino acids and so if you have all these amino acids in abundance but you are deficient in one, you run out of just one of those, that whole protein just stops getting made. just just stops there and it just it's waiting for another amino acid and then everything else can click into place. So you stop production for everything just because you're short on one amino. So if it's not in the right balance, it doesn't matter that on paper you have a so-called complete protein. If you're not if they're not in the right ratios, if you don't have enough lysine, you're not going to make these proteins. If you don't have enough carnitine, you're not going to make these proteins. So that's really important too. And of course the bioavailability. the studies that look at, you know, plant plant proteins versus animal proteins and you can get the same level of hypertro, you know, of of muscle development with plant-based proteins versus animalbased proteins. They're using protein isolates. They're using, you know, protein that has been amino acids that have been stripped out and and and digested for you. So that you know, they're in a sort of an elemental form where they're just their amino acids. So you know, you know, you sort of get past that bioavailability thing. You take away the protease inhibitors, you take away uh the tannins and all these other sorts of things. That's another thing. Plants come with tannins that bind to proteins, prevent you from absorbing them. They block they have protease inhibitors like in wheat and soy and many other plants that block protease which breaks down your your proteins and allows you to absorb them. So for all these reasons, eating a whole plant diet or or an omnivorous diet that can actually uh prevent you from absorbing as much uh pro quite severely. I mean tannins specifically denature protein so you can't absorb them at all. So if someone has a glass of wine with their steak, you know, they might be blocking out, you know, 30% of their protein absorption depending on how much uh of they're having and how how many t how many tan tannins are in there. So things like that. And so you know people people think well you can get the same this study says that you can get the same muscle hypertrophy as long as you get enough uh you know grams of protein or match from plants or from meat. Those are only talking about um amino isolated amino acids in their elemental form that you've sort of done the digestion for them and so they're more readily available and you remove the tannins, you've removed the protease inhibitors. Uh, so they're not a problem in the first place. But getting it in actual food, I mean, we're not living out, unless you want to live out of a tub your whole life, you know, fine. But if you want to eat real food, you the bioavailability and um and the access and quality of the protein from plant-based versus meat is just there's just no comparison. >> Absolutely agree about everything you said. Um yeah, you see the the problem also with fiber is that we we can't digest fiber because we don't have bacteria for that. Uh appendix is uh is an organ which is not active in humans but it's there. It may have been at some point revolution active but for example in gorillas appendix is full of particular type of bacteria which the only role is to digest fiber. So this is why they eat high fiber diet because they break that fiber into fatty acids and use fatty acids for energy not carbs >> because they don't eat any carbs. They don't eat pasta and rice anyway. So um we need to look into into our into our physiology also the diet that you mentioned plant food is full of fiber and full of carbs anyway. So I had uh I had few lectures in the group of uh they call me actually invited me a few times vegetarian groups and uh I explained all this to them and after every single session there will be at least half of them who come forward and said you know what I'm going to rethink everything. I'm going to start eating maybe fish and eggs maybe this and that. people are when they get exposed to the reality you know if you are if you're vegetarian or vegan for some ethical reasons or philosophical reason or religious reasons there is no discussion there but if you want to you know put it with arguments and discuss it rationally then we can argue we can talk because I'm not going to argue if you are saying you know my religion doesn't allow me to eat meat fine no problem end of story nothing to talk uh but if you think that that is good for you then then we can talk then let's see why do you think it's good I'm going to tell you why it's not good and uh every time I've given them the talk in there they was in hamsters a few times and uh you know people there are very affluent and they like to be modern in a way so they're all vegans or vegetarians just because it's a trend like like a sect or something I mean ridiculous and Uh they were all fat. >> So how is that good for you? Who is in shape there? No muscles, just fat. No muscles obviously because the protein is very low biological value and uh that food is full of carbohydrates. >> So what is the end story? End product. You end up with no muscle tissue, very small amount of muscle tissue and full of fat. How good is that? How good is that for longevity? And then you know I give them the the the lecture and then they some of them start training with me and immediately they start eating something. I always I always prefer whole foods rather than protein powders because you know we are not created to digest to eat protein powders. We created to eat food. You need protein with fat that you get in meat in eggs in fish in all other products. Uh not protein powders as you mentioned. So I had few vegetarian clients but they were eating eggs and they were eating cheese and cottage cheese and they were taking tons of protein shakes which I still and although they put on muscle they they were not in good shape because they still kept eating that those vegetarian meals which are full of fat wrong fat and uh and carbs and this is the issue. So well if you want to reason yes we can reason. If you don't want to reason then I wish you all the best. What can I say? >> Yes, absolutely. So, uh Dr. Yos, such good to see you. Thank you so much for coming on again. It's been an absolute pleasure as always. Um please let everybody know where they can find you on your on your various channels and um where they can see more. >> Yes, they just put my name um Dr. Nash Yotsich U and uh they can see me on uh YouTube on my videos as well and obviously in the link that you can put in the comments and and they can just come over and uh share experience with me and hopefully benefit >> information. Yeah, >> great. >> Thank you very much for having me. Yeah. >> Oh, you're very welcome. And I I'll put your information down in the description below along with the various studies that we spoke about as well. So, um, thank you all very much. Really appreciate that. Hopefully, you got a lot out of it, especially the athletes out there, the people that were were curious about, um, losing their athletic performance and muscle, uh, building potential by changing their diet for their health. Um, hopefully that's cleared the air. If you know anybody that could benefit from this, please do share this with them, uh, to help them get the information that they need. Thank you all very much. We'll see you next time. >> Thank you. Hey guys, thank you very much for taking the time out to listen to what I had to say. If you like it, then please like and subscribe to my YouTube channel and podcast. And if you're on YouTube, then please hit that little bell and subscribe. And that'll let you know anytime I have a new video out, which should be every week, if not more. And if you could share this with your friends, that would help me get the word out and let me know that you like what I'm doing. Thanks again, guys.