#1 Harvard Psychiatrist: This Is The WORST Food For Mental Health! | Dr. Georgia Ede

and all all plant foods are created equal if you're going to eat the rainbow you will pay a price because some plant foods are more aggressive than others most people are destroying the brains from the inside out without realizing it and then wondering why they don't feel well 31 of his most treatment resistant patients with schizophrenia bipolar disorder severe major depression by week three all of them had improved welcome to the plant-free MD podcast with Dr Anthony chaffy where we discuss diet and nutrition and how affects health and chronic disease and show you how you can use this to optimize your health and happiness both mentally and physically hello everyone thank you for joining me for another episode of the plant-free MD podcast I'm your host Dr Anthony chaffy and today I have a very special guest I'm very excited to speak to Dr Georgia Eid who is psychiatrist and been doing absolutely fantastic Research into the world of mental health and really re reshaping the landscape of how we think about mental health Dr thank you so much for joining thanks very much for inviting me it's nice to be here yeah so I'm I'm sure I've spoken about you a number of times and and I know that a lot of people do know who you are but for people who don't know who you are can you tell us a bit about yourself and what you do sure so I'm a psychiatrist I've been uh based in Massachusetts in the United States and I've been practicing Psychiatry for about 25 years and for the past 15 years or so have really uh focused on the uh relationship between nutrition and mental health so I use a lot of dietary interventions in my practice really the Cornerstone of my practice is the ketogenic diet and and also carnivore versions of a ketogenic diet um but I use a variety of dietary interventions in in my work and also do do research and teach and uh and just published a book yeah well that's great so well tell us a bit about that but also how how you came across that in the first place because obviously this isn't this isn't a typical thing uh for for doctors to be prescribing ketogenics and especially not carnivore diets certainly not yet right so uh well I I mean I think like a lot of doctors who come to uh to use nutrition in their practice they often stumble into it uh through their own health Journeys and that's definitely what happened to me so as you know so in medical school four years of medical school uh not a sing I think maybe two or three hours of nutrition education but nothing about food in the brain and then four hours of Psychiatry residency we didn't talk about food once so it actually had never cross my mind that food might might have an impact on our mental health uh until I changed my own diet for for other reasons having nothing to do with mental health and noticed that my mental health improved and uh ra rather rather Strangely I actually never really thought there was much wrong with my mental health until it got better and that I mean I think that's probably true for a lot of people they probably think you know this is I think our expectations of what of of our mental health are pretty low we kind of expect to sort of run out of steam at the end of the day we expect to get anxious uh very anxious on Sunday nights before Monday morning work starts we expect to be easily overwhelmed we expect to have you know difficulty concentrating and getting a lot done so for me it was really got my attention I thought you know when i' kind of stumbled into by trial and error this kind of upside down diet which was mostly meat I thought this diet seems to be good for the brain and you know maybe this could be helpful to all of my patients who you know most of them aren't getting better enough and and a lot of my patients you know had a lot of the same issues that I was coming across when I was in my early 40s you know things like you know chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia and IBS and migraines and I had no idea how how to help my patients with those issues and when my own issues resolved by turning my diet around that I I thought I need to study nutrition I need to understand whether this diet is going to kill me or whether it's the diet that's going to be useful for my patients and that's when I started studying nutrition in Earnest really for the first time okay so were you sort of self-taught did you take courses or really just delve into the research yourself well I started by delving into the resarch myself and as you know uh scratch the service of just about any nutrition study that's trying to convince you that uh you know a particular way of eating is good for you there's there's no science behind the conventional recommendations you know sort of recommendations to eat you know more plants than animals or you know lots of whole grains or low cholesterol low fat all of those recommendations are are they're they're not based in any science so I studied a lot independently for two or three years and then you I was working at Harvard at the time and so I I I also enrolled in a graduate course uh at the Harvard School of Public Health in human nutrition and it's a there are two courses there's you know sort of nutrition one and nutrition two for graduate students this largely for for uh students who are going on to become uh to to get a masters in public health and you was taught by very prestigious Harvard nutrition experts and so I took that one semester course and was really frustrated by what I was learning because most of it was best was based in this kind of epidemiological guesswork and these questionnaire based studies and so I didn't feel like I was really learning what I wanted to learn so I did not take the second course I didn't think that would be worth my time or money and then I continued continued studying independently after that yeah I think that's that's um probably a good thing yeah I think a lot of you people people talk about how like you say we only get about an hour or to of of nutritional education in medical school oh well that's the problem I'm like I don't know if that might that might actually be okay because You' probably be taught the wrong things and you probably get even more indoctrinated and down the wrong path and you know because um yeah they wouldn't actually go into as much detailed you know um a detailed view that that you did you can see this is just epidemiology this is just surveys they're just going to be you know just telling you oh well these Studies have shown blah blah blah blah blah probably wouldn't have gone into a lot of depth because it certainly wouldn't had a whole year worth of coursework graduate level coursework uh you wouldn't have that time available in medical school so it' be even more superficial and could even be worse indoctrination into the wrong sort of Pathways for nutrition that's a good point I hadn't thought of it that way but I think that it probably was a blessing in disguise that I didn't get more nutrition education in medical school or residency because it would have largely been a miseducation that it would have then had to undo and the the more you the more you learn about the wrong information the harder it is to unlearn it so I think you're making a a really good point yeah I well I I grew up in in Kirkland Washington and and there was a school named baser which they had apparently the top nutrition and and naturopathic graduate program in the country school there and I I remember speaking to many students there when I was at univ Washington and you know just friends through friends and things like that and they were all vegan all plant-based all pushing that and I remember just being like well that's obviously silly you know we're apex predators obviously we need meat we've always been eating meat you can't get B12 and all these other sorts of nutrients that you know it just sort of seemed like a silly a silliness to me but thinking about a bit more closely like why would someone with a PhD in nutrition think that an adequate diet is something that does not include basic nutrition and so once you think about that then it it's like okay well there there's some sort of corruption going on here mean that that that doesn't sound right you know I mean it's it's hard to tease apart all the different reasons why so many people who study nutrition have lost their way in terms of the the the basic biology of of of human beings and and of how Food Works in the body um I think there are lots of different factors going on and uh lots of different reasons why people go down the wrong path um I think regardless of how they got there uh we need to turn them around because the the information that's coming out of prestigious institutions like the Harvard School of Public Health and and tough University this information is harming people and uh regardless of of of of of of the motivations be behind those messages and so what I really what I really want to do is help people understand that no matter what anybody else is telling you um learn for yourself what you know understand what you think makes the most sense try these different diets on for size if you're if you're still skeptical try these different diets on for siid and see which one helps you feel your best and I I think because we're so long so far away from the types of experimentation you might wish we had to prove or or or really strongly support one particular diet being healthier than another over the long term those are the kinds of studies that people wish existed we don't have those studies and we we may never have those studies but you don't need to wait for those studies I mean there's lots of biology lots of information available to you and and you can do your own experiments you know because even if a study even if the best designed study found that you know 80% of people did better on a meat-based diet than a plant-based diet doesn't mean it's that you're going to do better on that diet so so um I think that that I I really want to empower people to look beyond the science actually you know to their own to their own wisdom and their own experience and and see what it feels like because as you know when you try a diet that is actually suitable for human health you notice very quickly you feel better often within a matter of days and so I think everybody deserves to have that experience yeah I agree and and that's I think the thing you know studies are there to guide us and to inform us so that we can make decisions in our life but at the end of the day if you make that decision and you try something and has a different result than the study says it will then well it's not really applicable and some well no no but this study says this and it's like okay but my life says something else and right I really like the quote from Richard fan physicist who said it doesn't matter how brilliant your theory is and it doesn't matter how smart you are if it doesn't agree with experiment it's wrong and really the only experiment that matters as to the individual is what happens to us and we experiment with that and if it improves our health then great and if it doesn't then move on I think that's exactly right and uh you know I think people have more more power than they realize in terms of their their in terms of their mental health in particular I think people don't realize how much control they have over over their mental health because the information that we've been given about how to feed the brain is is incorrect so most of us have been feeding our brain improperly our entire lives so we have no idea how much better you can feel maybe you're maybe you're not uh you know maybe you don't naturally have a sour disposition maybe you aren't you know uh maybe you weren't born to be sort of absent-minded and disorganized you maybe you know maybe uh you have a naturally Sunny disposition maybe you're naturally somebody who you know enjoys you know getting a lot done and you won't know that that unless you're giving the brain what it needs and then you can discover what your personal best actually is yeah absolutely well that that brings us into your book which is change your diet change your mind which I think is hopefully going to really open up a lot of eyes um can you tell us a bit about that you go into the causes of mental mental health issues and obviously what to do about it um it is very little known and little understood what the causes of mental health are right now even in the medical establishment and certainly I wasn't taught any root cause uh to any of these sorts of issues when I was going through and doing my um Psychiatry rotations it was just here are these problems and we have these pills that can help and this is their pharmacology and how they act so you feel like you're doing something scientific and worthwhile but in fact it's it's still very superficial you just s learning pharmacology as opposed to what is causing this so what is causing mental health issues and how do we address that right so so like you I mean I did four years of Psychiatry residency and like you I was taught you know that sort of the bioc psychosocial model of mental illness so that that mental health problems have biological root causes uh chemical imbalances uh that are to be addressed with medication and that they have psychosocial root causes uh things like trauma and stress and your mother things like that they can be addressed with psychotherapy so I was trained as as all psychiatrists are to prescribe medications and to offer Psychotherapy and I practiced that way for 10 years but we never really stopped to think well what is causing these chemical imbalances in the first place and when patients would ask me uh you know what what types of chemical imbalances do I have and which medicines should I try I would it it was literally literally guesswork and trial and error so I'd say well I don't have any tests I can offer you that can measure your brain chemicals so we're going to start with this medication right here because you've got some depression so let's start with an anti-depressant and we'll see how that goes and and and in some cases I mean people anybody who's been to a psychiatrist for for medication management knows this it can take a very long time uh of trial and error approaches to medications you star a depressant maybe you starting anxiety medication maybe you try sleep medication maybe if those don't work you switch to uh a mood stabilizer or antic psychotic you get side effects you add medications to balance those side effects counteract those side effects it can take a year or two to find any combination of medicines that's actually worth your taking and of course if you do get relief from those medicines which which most don't I mean the medicines can be helpful they really can I I still use them in my practice they have their place and for some uh situations they are really important but but for most people they do not work or they do not help enough and even people who do get relief from medicines pay a price for that relief in you know in terms of side effects and often really uh a lot of metabolic uh uh dysfunction uh which can shorten uh life so I think that you know medications uh I when I'm using medications practice even to this day it is a trial and error process so we're why aren't we stopping to ask well what is causing these chemical if there are chemical imbalances in the brain that are responsible what is causing those chemical imbalances in the first place and so we do know a lot more than we used to I mean even past 10 15 years we've come to understand some of the uh some of the key features that you see that many Mental Health disord ERS many Neuropsychiatric problems have in common are inflammation inflammation of the brain excessive oxidative stress you know too many free radicals and insulin resistance so those three uh are are really what people in the fields of nutritional Psychiatry and metabolic Psychiatry and I consider myself both a nutritional psychiatrist and a metabolic psychiatrist uh people people in these sort of Cutting Edge fields of of of root cause Psychiatry um those are the those are the drivers that we're looking at and so but then you but then what causes those so what causes inflammation what causes oxidative stress what causes insulin resistance and lo and behold if you look at the diet that most of us are eating you can find numerous culprits that we are we there's lots of good science behind this that if you're eating kind of a standard diet you are going to have without question excessive neuroinflammation excessive oxidative stress and insulin resistance so might might the diet have something to do with it I I think I think so yeah so is it just enough to get away from some of these things that cause inflammation or do you need to go onto a fully ketogenic diet is that obviously going to be a major factor to change the the available to the brain um what are some of the interventions that you find most advantageous to patients yeah so I'm glad you asked that question because there are different approaches people can take so if you start with the so-called standard American diet which is now the standard Global diet and just about any change you make to that is going to be an improvement so uh and so one of the one of the things that I did in the book which I which I I did very intentionally I didn't want this to be a book just about ketogenic diet or just about carnivore diets and the reason why is because both of those diets for most people are going to be a non-starter right so most people with mental health issues if if they think well the only way for me to have hope in my situation is is to is to is to try a ketogenic or a carnivore diet for a lot of people that's that's a bridge too far and so uh I want those people to know that there are that there's more you can do that you can start in a different place and you can work your way towards those other interventions if you feel ready and encouraged by what you've already experienced by simpler interventions so I kind of walk people through okay start here which is you know sort of a 90 grams of carbohydrate per day uh from Whole Foods fruits and vegetables no grains no legumes uh uh no processed foods and uh start there at kind of a lower carbohydrate diet where you still get to have some fruit and starchy vegetables um so you don't have to give those up entirely and uh just have of a balanced sort of paleo diet that's lower in carbohydrate and and see how that feels that alone uh taking out all the processed foods all of the modern agricultural Staples and I even recommend taking out Dairy for best results um and and bringing your glucose levels down by eating you know about 2third less carbohydrate than most people eat that alone especially if you have reasonably good metabolic Health if you're a younger person or athletic that might be all you need to do to see really good results but if you're like most of us and have a significant degree of insulin resistance which now you know about 90% of us do then you may need to go further you may need to lower your carbohydrate even further or even try a ketogenic diet I mean that's really where a lot of people see dramatic change in their mental health is when when because when you're on a ketogenic diet your brain fuel supply is uh supplemented uh and you lots of different types of uh areas of the brain and cells in the brain that have kind of been sputtering along are going to sort of come back online so when you switch to a ketogenic diet you're kind of fundamentally changing your brain's operating system and for that for for for most people that's a lifechanging experience to have to experience that transition so and and then I also of course and maybe one of the reasons why we're talking is the third diet that I recommend in the book is a carnivore diet which is usually depending on how you construct it is usually naturally ketogenic but it has the added advantage of of course being extremely low in plants or plant-free depending on how you want to construct it the one I put in the in the book is is plant- free but you can modify it and uh as as you know um this for some people makes a difference a big difference when ketogenic diets haven't helped very much so there are these different levels of Engagement that people can explore and uh I think that uh if people are concerned about oh this seems too hard I you know I could never give up XYZ PDQ don't worry about that just start where you want to start and and and find your way and and most what I find in my practice is that most people do want to go further because they're so encouraged when you make changes that actually make sense and actually have the power to change your brain chemistry you feel encouraged to to move forward but if all you're doing is sprinkling more blueberries on your oatmeal and you're not feeling any better of course you're going to feel discouraged about dietary interventions because those interventions don't work yeah it's it's interesting you mentioned about how some people are refractory even to a ketogenic diet and then but see Improvement when they go to carnivore i' I've certainly no noticed that in a few of my patients and I don't treat mental health in general but I obviously have patients that have mental health issues yeah and it it sort of it's everywhere obviously and so you know that's something that sometimes when I'm counseling people you know I mention these sorts of things I mentioned your work I mentioned Dr Chris Palmer's work and say hey look this is this is something that that's actually working for people clinically this isn't just supposition at this point there's actually quite a lot of evidence to this and some people have found they've done ketogenic diets and they still have a lot of anxiety and depression uh Jordan Peterson famously was one of these where he went on a heavily ketogenic nearly carnivore but still having salads and a lot of fatty meat and things like that and it helped a lot of his issues but he still had a lot of anxiety and depression like to to extent it was sort of crippling he it took him hours to get out of bed he really couldn't face his day very well and then his daughter convinced him to just drop the salads and in three weeks it was largely resolved and and he was pretty shocked he said he's like salad was doing this to me and so I I find that very interesting and I I do wonder what's in the vegetables what's in the greens I've noticed it myself and so I've I haven't had huge mental health issues but I have suffered from periods of depression and I'm was able to sort of get through these things I've just always been just so busy that's probably my Saving Grace which I just had things I had to do I'm like well I have to do this I just have to get it done and I just sort of trudged through it and got got through the other side of it um but I I noticed that when I when I first went carnivore mental Clarity was better my mood was better everything was better and I was doing so much better I had so many improvements and I was digging into the research I was I was taking some time off from residency to help with a family issue and so I had time and I was just I just was like okay what do we know what can we prove and I was just I was spending like 8 10 hours a day just reading studies and asking questions and seeing if there were answers and so it was great I was really excited about this and my family was very interested in this they're all academics they all they all are interested in basically anything interesting and so they were asking me questions about this they started getting interested in it so my parents gave it a try and at one point my mom made a roast leg of lamb and I think she put every single herb that she could find in the county on this thing it was completely green it was just a green log it was just like it was like paper maché with leaves and I was like I was like uh mom you we're not supposed to do you know greens and things like that you know that they have toxins they don't want to you don't want to actually eat those she's like no no no no we're not having sides it's just the lamb it's just the lamb I was like right but there's vegetables on the lamb and and she's like no no no but she just really just thought this didn't count because it's on the meat and I was like well you know you can tip cocaine and coffee and just say no it's just coffee it's just coffee I I don't do cook and um so so she ended up doing that and we had it and I was I was a bit miffed and I was I didn't really want to eat it but I didn't want to be rude and I was a bit self-conscious and I was like do I scrape it off I was like oh that would look weird and so I just said you know let's just eat let's just see what happens and you know see what the effects are just run a little experiment and I just started getting a bit more upset and a bit more disgruntled about things that were being said at the table I started losing my temper a bit I started getting a bit agitated and and quite upset and I remember being quite upset and I remember leaving the table at the end of that going down uh to the room I was staying in uh when I was visiting my parents and I was absolutely beside myself I was so upset I was over it I I I really decided that I did not want to be alive anymore I did not want to be on the earth anymore I didn't want to deal with this and I was actually planning out my suicide and I was I was actually thinking of the way I would do it and and something opened up in the back of my head that just said hold on a second nothing has happened that should make me feel like this but I do feel like this this is how I feel and so that's when I realized this is pathological something was wrong with my brain chemistry something was going on and affecting me in a negative way and so I was like okay we'll put that on hold try to sleep and wake up in the morning and if I still want to end things I'll do it then and I woke up in the morning thankfully did not feel that way I was sort of emotionally numb and I thought about you know what in the world was that about and was I just completely overreacting what was being said or was there something else that happened was I being infected was it those damn plants and so I just thought about it I said okay well let's run the experiment again I had some more of the lamb and I was Bloody depressed the rest of the day but I knew why now and so that just I and so I was so that was fine you know I was just upset I'm like okay that's that stupid garbage and so but that just reinforced my my plan of like just never eating anything green again in my entire life and you know I've noticed that in a few other people but I I often wonder what in the world was in there because I I was just so upset I I've never experienced anything like it had you ever had uh as part of your depression prior to that had you ever had Suicidal Thoughts before you know nothing necessarily seriously that was probably the most serious contemplation of it that I'd ever had however I at a number of times just did not want to be around anymore I'd be be on a plane traveling somewhere and thought wouldn't it be nice if this just didn't ever land you know this just you know if we didn't make it to the end of the this run and so I've had those thoughts and I've had similar sort of thoughts you know and then and then like with with morbid grief I've had thoughts about wanting to you know when a dearly you know loved family member passed away I just wanted to sort of just end things and go with them and didn't you know but that was that was more grief than depression but you know this time I I think I it was it was far more real it was far more visceral and I mean I was I was actually planning it out and I was like this is this is how I'm going to do it and and then that something clicked like what the hell's going on you know there wasn't the family member didn't die something horrible didn't happen I didn't just lose my life saving in the stock exchange you know this is this is not right you know you know what's interesting to me many interesting things to me about that experience which is horrifying experience that I'm sorry you had to go through um but I'm glad that you had the presence of mind to think wait a minute this doesn't make sense um but what what what I find interesting about that um is that you you had had feelings along those lines before but never to this degree of intensity and so uh what I've noticed myself in my own practice and in my own personal experience is that when people are pure carnivore completely plant-free um and I did I did that myself uh for eight and a half months a while back with you know only only um you know meat Seafood poultry water no tea no coffee no spices and salt right so so uh I did eight and a half months never felt better in my entire life um but uh I was in a situation where I was traveling uh to speak at a conference in Mexico and I didn't have total control over my food so I had something I I had like some sort of as similar to your experience I had some chicken but it had some herbs on it or some some it had been soaked in something who knows you know what it was I don't remember anymore but it was it had a some sort of an herb coating and uh I had a three-day severe migraine I've never had anything like it before I was in tears on the plane coming home is in so much pain and a similar experiences also during that period of time when I was when I was strict to carnivore if if there was any transgression um uh Beyond My Control I would have severe side effects overreactions to those plant foods that in the past yes those plant Foods would have bothered me but not to that degree and so I do I do find it interesting when people have these very severe um exaggerated responses along the lines of things that I mean I've had migraines before but nothing like that so I think that that speaks to and perhaps the fact that when you stop eating plants completely stop eating plants that some of the systems in your body that are that uh that you haven't been used for a while to detoxify those plants have gone quiet and uh so I wonder what you think about that I mean that's just a a theory or hypothesis that I have that sort of makes sense in my mind but how do you put it together how do you think about that experience you know from uh you know the the way that you think about plant versus animal foods and and how they can affect us I I totally agree I mean these are toxins and and we get tolerance towards toxins and just like if you drink alcohol every day or every week you'll build up tolerance and if you stop drinking for a while and you try to drink the same amount you're going to know about it and so I think that that that will give a much larger more exaggerated response if you have this out of your system because your body's just not used to it you don't have a tolerance built up which you know is it you mean you may not want that big exaggerated response but at the same time you know is it is it better to get the exaggerated response from from drinking alcohol or is it better to you know infrequently once every two years or is it is it better to have low-grade exposure to this toxin um that's actually could potentially cause chronic disease and build up and inflammation and all that sort of stuff so I I still like the abstinence side of things I still I still like feeling better all the time and if you know some plants get in my my system I at least know about it I just know why that's going to bother me it's it didn't Blindside me like it did that night I mean the next day I was severely upset but I knew why and that was okay and so I could just go and and do other things and not be around people to be a grouch at them and and uh and cause problems I think the other thing too is that we we get used to feeling so good that the contrast is quite a quite noticeable yes we go back to that and it's just a stark like what the hell is going on here and I think the combination of those two things the lack of Tolerance and the dark contrast is is quite shocking sometimes hey guys just want to take a second to thank our sponsor at carnivore bar I don't promote many products because honestly all you need to be healthy is to just eat meat for those times that you're out hiking road tripping or stuck at work and you want nutritious snack that is just meat fat and salt if you want it the carnivore bar is a great option so I like this product not because it's just pure meat but also because I want the carnivore Market to thrive as well and the more we support meat only products the more meat only products there will be available in the mainstream so if this sounds like something you'd like to get behind check it out using my discount code Anthony to get 10% off which also applies to subscriptions giving you 25% off total all right thanks guys yeah you know what else is really uh I think useful about this story is that imagine you are somebody who does have things wrong in your life right you didn't everything was going well for you so you were able to look at that situation and think to yourself This depression is is coming out of the blue it doesn't make any sense everything in my life is going well now that's not true for most people most people have you know things not going well maybe relationship issue or a work issue or something with you know something in your family or uh finances whatever it might be you've got something stressful going on in your life and you're depressed because of your diet the human mind is really excels at meaning making right so you're going to look at that situation and think oh this must be because my I I'm having trouble in my marriage or because you know my son is having trouble in school or uh you know because I failed that exam or whatever or you know because because I'm broke whatever it is and uh you're going to make sense out of it or you might even think well it's because of something bad that happened to me a long time ago uh so we'll create we'll create the the uh the reason for the depression and then we will we will work on that right so we'll work on the marriage we'll work on whatever the problem is we might even go to therapy we might even go to therapy for years you know trying to deal with what we are imagining to be the root cause of the depression and it's not that those things can't cause problems of course they can you know stress and uh difficulties in life of course they can they're not you're not going to feel you know on top of the world when you're when there's a serious issue going on in your life life that need your attention but I think what's been so surprising to me doing this kind of work is how much of those uh those very real stresses in life um how much less effect they have on you when you are eating properly so if you're eating properly you have and I've heard this from countless people it's it's as though you have a cushion a buffer around you where you can stand back and you can look at that situation and you can appraise it um uh from a standpoint of H uh this is a difficult situation what am I going to do about it as opposed to wow this is a difficult situation I need to end my life I can't I can't tolerate this I don't see another way out right and and I've seen this so many times uh for example uh worked with a patient for several years with severe food addiction and um uh mood disorder was having difficulty in in his marriage and went on and off a ketogenic diet multiple times because uh it's hard to stay on a ketogenic diet especially if you have certain types of food addictions and so um every time he went on the diet the suicidal thinking went away every time he came off the diet uh it came back um and his wife was there through both both of those stages and his wife wasn't going anywhere so I I think that um when you see this occur in your clinical work and when people experience it and share it with you it just completely changes the way you think about how the brain what a huge impact diet can have it's not going to change the situation for you you know you still have to deal with a situation or live with something from your past with a very real trauma that that is that has harmed you but it it it what what people tell me is that the trauma or the or the the stress or whatever it is that's going on it's not right here all the time they can push it off to the side they can look at it from a distance and they can kind of manage it and sometimes they can even work better in therapy on that problem because they can because they can actually uh function through it and and see it with fresh eyes so I think it's what you're sharing is so important because you didn't have any problems in your life so was it actually kind of a a beautiful experiment in a certain way right your life was was going really well and the only difference was from one day to the next was that you know the lamb was coated with herbs and spices and as you know herbs and spices you are very concentrated sources of some of plant chemicals that can be you know sort of aggressive um and so I think that um uh what what you're sharing with people is is I think pretty Illuminating and you can use that maybe as if anybody's listening who is you know a little bit unsure about trying this way of eating um again do your own experiment and see if you already have some depression anxiety attention issues memory PS whatever it is how much of those problems might be due to your diet and the only way to to answer that question is to find out for yourself uh you know see what's possible for you if your depression doesn't go away okay then uh maybe it wasn't your diet but I will say eight or nine times out of 10 it it is and so uh I don't have a randomized control trial to tell you that I just have you know hundreds of patients that I've worked with to tell you that um but I think uh I think it's really worth a try yeah definitely it's funny you mentioned that about the spices because my my mom actually got me for Christmas a book called most delicious poisons and it's all about and how these are actually the most toxic part of the plant and that's why have such a strong flavor our brain is that sends a signal and we and our brain sees that chemical and your brain just goes no don't eat this then that's why it's a strong strong flavor get this out spit it out and it was a very funny take on that I thought that was good um you mentioned you mentioned processed foods as well what wouldn't particular about processed foods is so harmful um obviously we can process foods in many different ways and ground beef processed foods what is it about the ultra processed foods that actually makes them harmful yeah so uh one of the things I explore in the book is that you know the you know I kind of pro let's process the word process you know and uh because anytime you do anything to a plant or animal you're processing right if you're chopping it up or if you're cooking it if you're fermenting it if you're um uh uh whatever you're doing to it is processing uh most animals don't process foods before they eat them they just swallow them uh but but you know we do all kinds of things to our food first so the difference between good processing and bad processing I think or or or or acceptable levels of processing versus unacceptable levels of processing is whether that processing brings a net risk or net benefit to human health so one could argue that certain foods especially depending on the source might need to be cooked to be safe in case there might be bacteria on the surface or um you know that uh if you cook especially plant Foods if you cook them you can make some of their uh nutrients more available to you you can make them somewhat less toxic um so fermenting can you know again make certain nutrients more available and make plant Foods less toxic that sort of thing so those sort traditional processing methods that we've you know been using for long long period of time um there was a there was a logic behind those they were making those Foods uh less harmful more nutritious to us or they're making them more shelf stable right so for example salting and curing uh so that type of processing could be beneficial um depending on the food but uh but but modern processing methods you know that require industrial plants and factories and things like that that level of processing is all risk and no benefit so what you're doing with with processing especially when you're creating a refined carbohydrate like a sugar or a syrup or a crystal um you're creating a refined fat like vegetable oil what you're doing is you're you're essentially stripping that Source food of all of its nutrients and concentrating the most harmful ingredient um and uh so uh it's one thing to you know eat a piece of fruit or a root vegetable it's another thing to eat pure sugar uh that comes from a root vegetable like a beet um you know it's it's one thing to eat a nut that has you know some some uh uh linol Lake acid in it which is the omega-6 fatty acid which is so high in vegetable oil it's another thing to pour concentrated uh source of lenol L acid over all the all the food you eat you know mayonnaise and salad dressings and and marinades and things like that so uh this degree of processing is all risk and no benefit so the signature ingredients the two I mean there are many potentially harmful ingredients in processed foods emulsifiers and stabilizers and thickeners and all kinds of things and flavors and colors uh but the the Lion Share what we really need to worry about in in so-called ultr processed foods are the refined carbohydrates and the refined fats so um I think uh the vegetable oils the sugar the flour the cereal products the fruit juices um all of those if if and this is I I say this in the book this is if you do nothing else please at least remove those because refined carbohydrates and refined veget vble oils are direct and Powerful promoters of inflammation and oxidative stress in the brain so these are these are again these are what are disrupting our brain chemistry these are what are destabilizing our brain chemistry causing the neurotransmitters to go out of balance uh causing uh the uh brain to be damaged from the inside out causing these Advanced glycation end products these kind of sticky dysfunctional molecules there's too much sugar in your brain uh that will normalize very important proteins and other kinds of components in your brain and gum up the works and your brain's immune system will try to clear those away by mounting an inflammatory response and generating free radicals to deliberately create oxidative stress so if you're eating this way three four five six times a day which now most people are which is you know heartbreaking or maybe I should say brain breaking this is you know this is really dangerous and most people eat this way most people are destroying the brains from the inside out without realizing it and then wondering why they don't feel well you know why it's it's not it's not just one in four people at least in the United States anyway I don't know the figures for Australia but one in four people in the United States uh now have a diagnosable mental health disorder serious enough to interfere with their ability to function and among people from 18 to 25 years old it's one in three now wow so this is really serious and uh what what I I mean it sounds so horrible and so dire but it's also really empowering because if you know what's causing it you and you have it in your power to undo it and it it it's not easy but it's simple and it doesn't cost you anything uh in fact will save you money in the long run and uh within days to weeks you will notice a difference and I think it's really really worth it for people to understand how exactly those Foods I kind of I spell this out in the book because I don't want it to be mysterious this is how this works and so if you can picture that happening you know every time you're pouring salad dressing on your salad that's you know loaded with soybean oil every time you are eating you know a cookie or a bowl of cereal or a sweetened yogurt um imagine imagine your brain under attack every time you do that and so the less you do that you the the better off you'll be yeah and yeah well that I mean that's that's just very good for anyone just you cut out those Ultra processed foods and those those specific Ultra processed carbohydrates find sugars and carbs and Seed oils as far as linolic acid goes the omega-3 um or sorry the Omega sixes and yeah polyon saturated fats obviously this is what people have been telling us to eat for 50 years now you know this is this is this is are supposed to eat you're you're supposed to get rid of saturated fat and you're supposed to eat these unsaturated fats why are these so har harmful and you know when these good good wonderful humanitarians all want us to eat it yeah it's it's it's just a Marvel of marketing to me it's just it when you look at the truth about vegetable oil and linolic acid there's no question that this is not only completely unnecessary molecule to be taking in uh in any amount uh we we don't need a single molecule of linolic acid we are told that it's an essential fatty acid it is not essential uh the we're we're told that we need to eat linolic acid which is you know uh you know the nut and Seed oils are very very high in LOL many of them are very high in linolic acid we're told that that's good for us a because it's not saturated we could go down that we could talk about that for a half an hour but uh not ju not just that it's not saturated but it's actually essential and good for you and will reduce your risk for heart disease right all ridiculous and so the reason it's ridiculous is lenol let's look at what it is it's a very long polyunsaturated omega-6 fatty acid that is naturally found in small amounts in in all plant and animal Foods really right so you can it's widespread in and and we are designed we are equipped to be able to see a small amount of it uh but we're not we certainly are not equipped to sort of be pouring it all over all of our food all day long so linolic acid is a very fragile uh fatty acid which uh you basically look at it the wrong way and it falls apart right so it's oxidative stress and so if you've got any oxidative stress going on in your body that's going to oxidize the the lenic acid and then that leads to a chain reaction of further oxidative stress so it itself is becoming more and more oxidized as are the molecules around it so youve get this chain reaction of oxidative stress free radicals running a muck you think of them as like little Bulls in a china shop that're randomly damaging everything they bump into and this is not good so so now there's a lot this is pretty new science in terms of looking at the potential dangers of linolic acid is a relatively new uh a relatively new uh field but but before I get to that let me come back to why they say it's essential so why why are we told that this is an essential molecule we're told it's essential because we need it to build arachadonic acid arachadonic acid is a omega-6 fatty acid that the brain actually needs uh that's the that's the Omega that's the fatty acid the brain actually needs and arachadonic acid uh you can get from animal Foods so if you're eating animal Foods you do not need to eat a single molecule of lenic acid if you're not eating animal Foods okay maybe you might need uh linolic acid but uh you don't need very much first of all and and second of all if you have too much linolic acid in your diet um the very early scientist is beginning to show that that linolic acid does cross the blood brain barrier it gets absorbed into the brain just like any other polyunsaturated fatty acid does so the Omega-3s obviously have to cross the blood brain barrier so do Omega sixes because the brain needs Omega 6 in the form of arachadonic acid when the brain absorbs linolic acid it it seems to really not know what to do with it so instead of turning it into arachadonic acid which is why we're told we're supposed to eat it the vast majority of that linolic acid gets burned for energy you don't want that the brain is not supposed to be burning fatty acids for energy the brain is supposed to be burning smaller molecules not these long fats that create a lot of oxidative stress and inflammation in the process of chopping them up you want small molecules like glucose and ketones to be burned in the brain when you burn too much fatty ass in the brain you will get excessive inflammation and oxidative stress so again you don't want this um now uh I think that uh if since there's no reason there's no earthly reason to consume linolic acid wouldn't you want to play it safe even though the science is still emerging about how dangerous this actually is and what problems it might actually cause while you're waiting for all the scientists to figure this out why not just take it out of your diet it's a it's an ultra refined oil that comes from oil refineries there's nothing natural about it I I put in the book exactly if you wanted to try to make this at home how you would how you would attempt to do this in 13 easy steps uh that require by the way uh a an explosive solvent named hexane so uh you really be careful that you know you could have a serious kitchen accident if you tried this at home this is not a natural fat it has no flavor it has no color um it's it it's not a food and if anybody's really curious ious about linolic acid and vegetable oils and how we got here to this ridiculous upside down view of fats if you haven't already read Big Fat Surprise by Nina tels it is a wonderful uh um uh exploration of the science and the politics and the history of how we got here yeah and Nina's great too I've had her on the podcast as well and it's always just a a joy because you know she was on the other side of this she was plant-based for a long time and then she started doing story and she started di into it going oh damn it okay well that was all wrong and um you know like a like a good journalist would they start they start pulling at strings and try to see you know where these leads go and and see why is this this sweater unraveling so quickly like okay let's let's figure out why that is so yeah no nina is great and I you know I just think about that about the you know the Omega six is going into the brain you you have a lot of mayonnaise on something you do a salad dressing and that's just that's just all going to your brain and you know what is that doing to your brain it's not going to be good me just dumping a lot of oxidative stress and and damage to the brain and obviously uh we you know it's not uh it's not going to be a positive thing and I think I certainly well you can get studies that say anything but there are certainly certainly studies that that say that there are higher levels of mental health issues in the vegan vegetarian plant-based communities that could possibly be why they're just exposing themselves to more of these Omega-3s and and other oxidative um substances is that something that you've come across is that is that is that a correct St statistic that that plant-based people have more mental health issues is that something you've come across as well uh I I don't I I I am very careful when I talk about this because I don't think we can really say that yeah I think that the information about you know uh comparing the mental health of people who uh eat quote unquote plant-based diets versus meat-based diets is is very poor quality and so uh it's a lot of epidemiology there has never been uh a a trial an Interventional trial experiment showing that if you take somebody who's eating um you know a sort of a standard diet or even a Whole Foods meat-based diet and you switch them to a plant-based diet or vegan or vegetarian diet that their mental health declines and I would say that as a psychiatrist who worked in for 12 years in college mental health um six let's see seven years at Harvard and five years at Smith college in Massachusetts up here in the US um I worked with lots and lots and lots of students um many of whom uh prefer uh sort of high plant or low meat diets or vegan diets uh in in some cases even and I have to say that um while I have I I have I never I I did not meet a single patient patient student eating a vegan diet who was in good physical or mental health I'm also only seeing the ones who are coming to me for mental health problems and I would also say that most of my students had poor health and poor diet whether they were eating animals or not so the problem is that the the students on campus that I met um who and I met many of them who were eating vegan or vegetarian diets we're eating the same junky version of of you they were eating just as much junk as everybody else was it just didn't have any animals in it so I think you know the the the culture of food on college campuses is atrocious and so whether you're eating plants or animals um I think uh in my students mattered less than all of the the junk that they were eating I didn't I couldn't tell you for example if I had you know how they say a Whole Food's plant-based diet is the best diet for this that and the other thing my students weren't paying attention to the whole food it's part of that statement they were paying attention to the plant-based and usually not for health reasons I mean they're usually most of my students were eating uh vegan or vegetarian diets for compassionate reasons and so uh and they just because of the messaging that we receive about plant-based diets being healthier they thought that well better health was just icing on the cake not something to be sacrificed for their compassionate ideals but um really do think that that is what's happening and I think that's really unfortunate um and it's really the young people especially young women um who need to be uh um who need to have better information about how these diets affect not only their health but if they're planning to have children the health of those children so this is the most vulnerable uh population to nutrient deficiencies um are are pregnant women and uh and developing children so this is where you don't want to miss out on a single nutrient not even for a minute yeah uh so during brain development that that's that's a that's a there are steps there that you may never get a chance to to to correct so I think that um one of the reasons I wrote this book and there's a there's a chapter in the book called The plant-based brain which explains exactly what happens if you don't have animal Foods in the diet when the brain is developing to try to help people understand how dangerous this is uh and you don't hear that when in mainstream messaging about plant-based diets you never hear the ifs ands and butts about vegan diets you know you it's safe if it's safe but it's safe you know and and so it it this is a very very slippery slope um and I think people need to know what the risks are so that they can make informed choices yeah no I I I I'm really glad you said that because i' I've you hear these things balancing around I've seen some uh things but like you say their epidemiology and I I just you know and that's what I wanted to sort of see obviously this is this is your field so I always wanted to ask that of you know a psychiatrist who actually knew the study so that's that's defin and I think that's very fair you know we just don't have the experimental data to really say one way or the other I mean I certainly feel worse when I eat plants you know my clearly affected by that um but certainly not for everybody you know it's it's you know it's so good that you point out you know they don't talk about the if an or buts I was just talking to someone about this the other day and uh they were they were saying that they had a they had a horrible reaction to it was actually a patient a horrible reaction to uh these veggie chips and they've been mostly carnivore and they had this big reaction to that so there's that that sort of that thing again where you have this big reaction but um she just she was really really unwell she did not feel good she end up having to leave this party and she didn't know what was going on she end up looking up these veggie chips and she start found that there were these tapioca powder that was and um and there's sort of a rash of these apparently with those veggie chips and the tapioca powder apparently had a much higher level of cyanide in them that um than they they normally should have and apparently they had something they normally should have I love that exactly yeah that was that was the thing the the who said that up to 10 milligrams of cyanide was okay right and so it's like okay well the this bag of chips had like 160 or something like that so it was much higher but that's the thing no one says that 10 milligrams is is enough and say hey this bag has 10 milligrams of cyanide one bag per day only as per The Who and you meet your maximum cyanide like whoa what the what what you know that no one's going to eat that no one's going to buy that but it's irresponsible not to say that and we have these toxins that we know about that we can quantify that we can say causes harm at this line and the who says causes harm at this line 10 milligrams and yet no one says that it doesn't say people down you know they're designed to be highly palatable they're designed to be addictive and just you want another chip and another chip and another chip and you down bags of these things so it's designed to have you surpass that threshold and no one tells you about it which I I think is is extraordinarily irresponsible and pretty scary that that happens it is and so uh in the fruits and vegetables chapter of my book I talk about cassava in particular um as being uh a food that I food I don't I wouldn't call it a food I call it uh this is uh that that is dangerous and uh it depends on the source and it depends on the amount but why would you want to expose yourself to any amount of cyanide y uh cyanide is a mitochondrial poison why would you want to do that to yourself and uh and you don't always know how much is in the product and I I tried to Tred to understand and I put this in the book you know um some com some countries have different thresholds in terms of how much cyanide is allowed to be in their cassava products every country is different so depending where you live you might be getting uh you might be getting products that are are are not as safe as some other ones I I I I I really do consider cassava to be one of those one of those products that people needs that people should avoid if they want optimal mental health and so when I'm designed these diets in the book The the Paleo and keto and carnivore diets I modified them to be I can call them quiet diets because they're now they're they're not with the exception of the carnivore diet they're not plant-free but the Paleo and the ketogenic diets are they're free of for example cassava and night shades and the things that have neurotoxins in them to to the degree that I think they're worth every everybody avoiding um so so these diets are quieter they're quieter on your gut they're quieter on your immune system they're quieter on your mitochondria your nervous system your thyroid um and you know helping people understand that not all plant foods are created equal so if you're going to eat the rainbow you will pay a price because because some plant foods are are more aggressive than others and if you understand the difference you can make your own choices and you can do your own experiments see well you know how do I do with night shades uh I don't think anybody should eat cassava how do I do with flax seed flax seed you grind up flax seed you also get Trace Amounts of Cyanide and people are people who are honestly care about their health are make are putting flax seed in their smoothies they're sprinkling it on top of their cereal and putting in their yogurt without realizing that there is uh some perhaps cumulative risk involved it's hard to know it's hard to know exactly um how these foods will affect you um unless you remove them so and and I think I think again you know I like to say you because I work with all different kinds of people and will help anybody optimize the diet of their choice I'm nutritionally pro-choice I just want people to have the right information so that they can make an informed Choice understanding the risk and benefits and then going in with clear eyes and knowing that okay if if you prefer not to eat mammals um uh or or any anal if I mean mammals is a different story I think that's a you you don't have to eat mammals you can eat other kinds of animals to get your animal nutrients but if you prefer not to eat animals here are the risks involved in that um and then you can decide what's most important to you and make your own choice yeah absolutely um so we touched on like you know different clinical trials and the lack thereof but and and you talking about in your clinical experience that that this had had benefited so many people but there's also we've also uh conducted some clinical trials as well in in nutrition and how that affects mental health is that correct so I co-authored a study uh in 2022 I did not conduct the study but I put the study together and analyzed it with with some help with from Dr Eric Westman and Dr Laura saslo who have a lot of experience publishing uh science papers and uh but I I pulled together all of his information and and wrote the paper and uh I'm really really um pleased that this paper has gotten as much attention as it has because um people need to understand what what happened in this study it it really I think if more people knew about it I think I think it would be uh it would it could bring some very positive attention to the power of dietary intervention for mental health so what my so my friend and colleague Dr Alber J he's a psychiatrist in tus France who's been practicing Psychiatry for more than 35 years now and has you know worked largely with uh uh people from of North African and French descent with serious chronic mental illnesses and uh so some of these patients he's worked with for decades and so what he decided to do uh he had witnessed a family member improved within just a few weeks on a ketogenic diet and terms of autism symptoms and epilepsy became seizure-free on a ketogenic diet and reduced symptoms of autism substantially he thought again this diet seems to be good for the brain you know could this diet help my patients some of my patients who aren't getting better enough or haven't responded to all of the medications that I've been prescribing and the the Psychotherapy and and hospitalizations every I've been using every tool in my toolbox to help these people and they're not getting better maybe this let let you know maybe this could help so he invited 31 of his most treatment resistant patients with uh schizophrenia bipolar disorder severe major depression these were patients uh uh with uh taking an average of five psychiatric medications not at all unusual in The Chronic mental uh illness uh field uh in the cases of chronic mental illness you often see multiple medications prescribed so and average of five medications and they had been in treatment with Dr Dena for an average of 10 years some of them 30 years right so he invited 31 of them to come into the hospital voluntarily to try a simple Whole Foods mildly ketogenic diet under his Supervision in the hospital and 28 of those 31 patients were able to stay on the diet for more than two weeks which is what you need to do to start to see the the changes happened so 28 of those people continued with the study and by week three after about three weeks and this is what we see in clinical practice all the time uh after about three weeks all of them had improved all of them had improved regardless of the nature of their diagnosis the duration of their diagnosis the number or type of medications they were taking and uh 44% of them achieved clinical remission wow from serious chronic mental illness and this uh that's why I thought it was worth publishing and this was not a randomized control trial he didn't divide his patients into two groups and compare one against the other so you know we can't say uh technically from a scientific sampoint we can't say that the ketogenic diet was directly responsible for these improvements that's why we need randomized control trials which are in the works already uh around the world um but the but what we can but these were all patients who had been hospitalized one or more times before in this very same hospital or a sister facility in the same region that uses the same protocols under the care of this very same psychiatrist and had never seen results like this before so we'd like to think that the ketogenic diet had something to do with it uh and uh and quite a few of those patients uh opted to continue some vers of that diet even after they left the hospital so I think that this is uh I think that this is uh something that that gives people hope I mean most people who are in situations like that believe that they have already tried everything and their doctors think that they've already tried everything but there are some very powerful interventions available that most people have never tried so I think it'd be great if more people knew about that yeah definitely well I'll I'll put a link to that study in the description as well as well as a link to your book and um which I think is is just absolutely fantastic I really love the work that you've been doing I've been really looking forward to talking to you um and so this is this has been absolutely wonderful so just a last last question before we go what do you eat these days you Carnival a while and um and you said that that made you feel really good what is what is the good Doctor's Diet these days ah well so never go by me right I'm always I'm always experimenting with my diet but uh I will I'll share a few things which might be useful to your listeners so one is I did I did uh very strict uh meat Seafood poultry water salt for eight and a half months several years back I I felt my best uh I I I lost weight more easily I've always had trouble with my weight uh my whole life um and felt amazing I did have very strong and severe reactions to trans you know when I when the die got interrupted for whatever reason uh which were which were disabling in certain in certain cases um but uh beyond that I think any anybody who's watching who already knows something about me knows that I have a lot of food sensitivities that make sticking to any diet uh especially when you're traveling very difficult so for years I had difficulty with beef and pork and so uh traveling was difficult to find poultry or seafood depending on where I was going this was the the issue in Mexico uh and um so finding simple plain sources of those foods and to get enough fat when I was traveling was challenging uh because I you know don't eat lard or bacon or anything like that so um and I don't eat dairy or eggs because I have sensitivities to Dairy and eggs so it was really challenging uh and at a certain point I thought you know this is just too difficult uh you know I want to expand my diet a little bit but but I will be honest with with everybody uh when I expanded my diet even just back to my sort of oh the few plant that don't bother me in small amounts I paid a price for that you know so uh and so I've been gradually um narrowing my diet down again and now I'd say probably 95 98% some days 100% carnivore again but here's something that's changed uh and I haven't studied this so you uh please don't uh you know try this on your own without consulting with somebody but um I'm 59 years old and I started estrogen replacement therapy and my food sensitivities improved tremendously interesting a complete surprise to me um and so I'm now able to eat beef and pork if I'm careful if they're fresh and so I am uh gradually working my way back towards a carnivore diet after I finished this I'm I'm traveling now but after after I uh um uh after after I finish with traveling I'm working my way back towards uh pure carnivore again because that's what helped me me feel my best and keep myself at a healthier weight and uh and and just be more productive and happier in general I don't suffer major consequences from eating my mostly meat diet with a few plants and I really don't if I did I I wouldn't include them but this is why this is why I think it's the value of self experimentation is is is so is so important because everybody's going to find that line that works best for them in terms of okay what are the risks and benefits if I include these few foods does that make my life you know more is that a better quality of life for me because it's socially a little bit easier when I travel it's a little easier um and uh I don't have to be quite so strict um so i' I've been I've been experimenting with that and I think overall what I've discovered is that as long as I can have beef and pork which make it so much easier um as long as I can do that I think for me what what may end up happening is that I may go back to that strict carnivore because there was a night and day difference that's hard to explain if people haven't explored it for themselves between a a low plant ketogenic diet and a no plant ketogenic diet there is a world of difference and I may decide that it is worth it for me to to to cross back cross back over that line again yeah well that's great well Dr Eid I'm I'm so appreciative of your time thank you so much for coming on it's been an absolute pleasure please let people know where they can find you and find your work and Andy your book uh sure so the I don't know when this uh is airing but the book is um coming out on January 30th okay and so it's it's a change your diet change your mind here it is um I usually have it on display in the behind me but I'm at a hotel at a metabolic Health Summit uh this weekend uh so um so you can you can it it'll be published in Australia New Zealand everywhere all english- speaking markets on January 30th um and um and you can find me I I spent a lot of time on Twitter if you want to ask me direct questions I have a website called diagnosis diet.com um it also on my website you can find a free clinician directory if you're looking for a clinician to help you try a ketogenic diet for for mental health specifically there's a directory an international directory you can search and I also teach clinicians uh train clinicians of CME certified training program teaching clinicians how to use ketogenic diets specifically to help people with mental health conditions you can find information about that on my website as well um so uh yeah I hope I hope some of this information's been useful and it's been really nice to finally meet you and I I I thank you very much uh for all the interesting work that you've been doing helping people uh introduce people to these to to this really powerful uh intervention and and this information I think can really be life-changing for so many people so thanks for for for all you do and for inviting me you're very welcome it's been a pleasure and thank you I I appreciate the kind words all right well thank you very much and thank you everyone for watching it's been absolute pleasure again please do hit the like And subscribe and leave a comment and please do follow Dr Eid and get her book it's absolutely fascinating thank you all see you next time